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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Is the Highlander the new heavyweight of Mercs since 1.05?
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Topic Subject:Is the Highlander the new heavyweight of Mercs since 1.05?
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ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 01:41 PM EDT (US)         
Ive always liked the Highlander, even before .05. They have monster ranged attack with even better results when meleeing cavalry. They have good hitpoints also. Im not sure what thier resist is tho.

Anyways i wanted to have a healthy discussion on how the Highlander weighs out amoung the competition. Highlanders kill Black Riders ranged or melee, they are just slower so they can get bumped. Jaeger owns Highlander, but are slower since .05, is the Jaeger still better than Highlander?

I like sending the 2 cannon shipment, then sending Highlanders to defend cannons. I can usually have 11 Highlanders, 2 falconets and 10 pikemen at about 8:20.

Highlander is better than Swiss Pikemen, Stradiot, Mameluke, Ronin, Hackapell, Corsair, and Manchu. The only Mercs that give them any type of problem would be BR and Jaeger, what do you guys think?

EDIT: Highlanders owned in real life. They were some bad ass scotts, highly respected by the Royal Army, and other European countries alike.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by ub3r (edited 03-17-2006 @ 01:43 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 05:00 PM EDT (US)     76 / 99       
Not really, nothing happened to the Barbary Corsair or Landsknect in the patch, and i dont see how .5 reduction in speed for the Jaeger has any relavance concerning Landsknects and Corsairs.

"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 06:05 PM EDT (US)     77 / 99       
Maybe you don't see it because it's a 1.0 speed reduction, not a 0.5 one.

In 1.04, Corsairs were useful, but not nearly as much, because Jaegers and Skirmishers (at 5.0 speed) could stil kill many of them before they'd close to melee range. With Skirmishers and Jaegers alot slower (4.0 speed), the 6.0 speed Corsairs easily catch up.

Changes in other units made Corsairs and Landsknecht better choices.

Hell I don't think people truly realise how significant the Skirmisher nerf actually is. Last night I won a game against a Spanish guy. I was killing his 20+ Skirmishers with my 20+ Veteran Janissaries (granted they also had the combat upgrade card for 305 total HP and 26 ranged damage), after all my Corsairs died defeating Swiss Pikemen, Hussars and Lancers.
I started out with 28 Janissaries, and by the time he had about 5 Skirmishers left (all damaged), I stil had about 15 Janissaries left.
Chased them all the way back to his tripple barracks. Just as another 15 Skirmishers came out (they were gonna kill my Jans), my 7 Stradiots arrived on the field and he resigned.
The speed nerf singularly made this possible.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 03-19-2006 @ 07:47 PM).]

Mark_Aurel
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 06:51 PM EDT (US)     78 / 99       

Quote:

Not really, nothing happened to the Barbary Corsair or Landsknect in the patch, and i dont see how .5 reduction in speed for the Jaeger has any relavance concerning Landsknects and Corsairs.

That is... ummm. I don't quite know what to say, actually. It's just plain insightless.

Of course the speed nerf has a huge relevance for those units. It was, as already pointed out, 1 not .5. That's a tremendous boost for melee units against skirmishers and Jaegers. Units like rodeleros and Barbary Corsairs especially, but also all other melee and short-ranged infantry units. Like, say... the Highlander. Which was the topic here to begin with.

To say it's simply 'fashion' is completely missing the point about what the patch did to the skirmishers. Skirmishers pre-patch were able to hit and run or chase down the Corsairs, and the Landsknechts with particular ease. Post-patch, they can't do that nearly as well. That makes an enormous difference in the ease with which those units are countered, and hence their general utility.


<Witty signature goes here.>
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 07:32 PM EDT (US)     79 / 99       
Ender - "In 1.04, Corsairs were useful, but not nearly as much, because Jaegers and Skirmishers (at 5.0 speed) could stil kill many of them before they'd close to melee range. With Skirmishers and Jaegers alot slower (5.0 speed), the 6.0 speed Corsairs easily catch up."

Explain how that makes sense.

Maybe the reduction in the speed of 2 units helps the Landshnect and Corsair, but i really dont think it made that much of a big difference. Corsairs and Landsknects were decent before the patch, which no 1 agreed with and dismissed them all together. Now since the speed reduction of 2 units, they are the holy grail.


I can agree that it effects them a little, but you guys make it seem like that MADE them units, which it didnt, it just makes it seem like a helluva lot becuz no 1 even considered them pre patch.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 07:48 PM EDT (US)     80 / 99       

Quoted from ub3r:


Explain how that makes sense.

Typo, which is now fixed.

Quoted from ub3r:


I can agree that it effects them a little, but you guys make it seem like that MADE them units,

I attempted to illustrate WHY the speed nerf was so significant:

Quoted from Ender_Ward:


The speed nerf singularly made this possible.

No hit and run = greatly reduced effectiveness.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 03-19-2006 @ 07:53 PM).]

Mark_Aurel
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 07:57 PM EDT (US)     81 / 99       

Quote:

Maybe the reduction in the speed of 2 units helps the Landshnect and Corsair, but i really dont think it made that much of a big difference.

That makes me wonder how many pre-patch games you played at any decent level of competition. Skirmishers were all the rage. Seriously. That's why they got that nerf too.

Sooo... with skirmishers being worse in general as an all-around kill-everything unit, you may expect that there may be somewhat less of them around, and those that are around do a worse job of countering stuff because they can't run/shoot/kill without being touched anymore.

It's not brain surgery, really.


<Witty signature goes here.>
Fornak
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 07:59 PM EDT (US)     82 / 99       
which merc shipment do u guys prefer more?

11 corsairs

or

7 hackapell?

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:05 PM EDT (US)     83 / 99       
I dont really know how the Jaeger was bumping and running the Corsair pre patch. They had 1 less speed, maybe they kill a couple while corsairs are closing in, but all the bump and rape ends there.

Landsknect is a different story, i can agree that they were effected more than the Corsair.

Look before the patch Corsairs were laughable. If any1 even made a post talking about any usefullness of a Corsair they would get flamed. Now since the patch, the Corsair has a 2 speed advantage on jaeger, so nooowww they are l33t...right.

Its more like the Corsair was ignored pre patch, just like the Rodeleros used to be ignored untill some1 discovered they werent just cannon fodder.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:12 PM EDT (US)     84 / 99       
After the patch I prefer Corsairs 99% of the time.

Corsairs kill:

All ranged cavalry that wasn't fast enough to run (including Mercs like Black Rider).
All melee cavalry (with the exception of Spahi, too many Corsairs die).
All non-merc heavy infantry (excepting Swiss Pikes, these lose too).
All light infantry (and Mercs of this type).
All artillery.

Indeed, the only real counter to Corsairs is other heavy infantry Merceneries (Landsknecht, Ronin, etc), Artillery behind meatshields or light infantry behind meatshields (Cassadors, Jaegers, etc).
But just like Rodeleros, they have very few direct counters that kill them without any support units.

Hackapells though:
Die to ranged cavalry.
Die to heavy infantry mercs/dopplesoldners.
Die too quickly under concentrated fire from light infantry.
Lose cost effectively to heavy ranged infantry. (Muskets/Janissaries).
Take extra damage from Outpost/TC fire.

There is only one thing Hackapells do better then Corsairs, villager raiding. But that's not enough of a reason to choose them.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:13 PM EDT (US)     85 / 99       
Still don't like Landsknect at all.

Highlanders, Corsairs or Swiss Pikemen are all superior in almost all situations I can think of. Landsknect are slow enough to bump and run regardless of the speed nerf, they can catch up eventually, but not before you have killed most of them.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:15 PM EDT (US)     86 / 99       

Quoted from ub3r:


Now since the patch, the Corsair has a 2 speed advantage on jaeger, so nooowww they are l33t...right.

That's it, you got it right there.

Just like we could kill low numbers of melee cavalry with Skirmishers, or medium numbers of melee cavalry with Jaegers before the patch, so we could kill Corsairs (which were actually slower than ALL melee cavalry).

Not anymore ...

But yes, you're also correct that Corsairs were overlooked befor the patch, just like Rodeleros. If you watched high level players' recording though, you'd seem the used quite a bit, usually as part of an Industrial Merc Army (the 4 Mameluke, 4 Stradiot and 10 Corsair one).



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 03-19-2006 @ 10:36 PM).]

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:16 PM EDT (US)     87 / 99       
Ender i can agree with you here.

But all hard feelings and bullshit aside.

You just stated a few positive things about the Corsair, and they seem right on key. But honestly, how come no one used Corsairs pre patch? The only point you made that concerned the patch was Kill all light infantry. All the other points you made have nothing to do with the patch, so they had the same effectiveness before the patch, yet no one gave them respect or used them.

Why do you think this?


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:18 PM EDT (US)     88 / 99       
Earl, I personally dislike Landsknecht so much because they protect Jaegers (or artillery) so damn well .

You can't get to the Jaegers with melee cavalry. You can't get to them with Corsairs. Any non merc heavy infantry you send in gets annihilated. They're like Dopplesoldners on crack. They don't need to run after anybody, Jaegers/Falconets kill everything from range. The Landsknecht just form an impenetrable defense around 'em.
Even if you bring in Falconets, the Lands just charge it. Falconets aren't fast enough to unpack and get away.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:25 PM EDT (US)     89 / 99       

Quoted from ub3r:


But honestly, how come no one used Corsairs pre patch?

Because you'd lose too many to light infantry before they caught up. Light infantry (namely Skirmishers and Jaegers) were just too fast.

Melee cavalry mercs had a better chance because:

1. They were faster than 6.0 speed (usually 6.85 or 7.25).
2. They did not take 2x damage from Skirmishers/Jaegers.

But now Corsairs easily catch up and start ripping into the light infantry.
Now, ofcourse, melee cavalry does it even better, BUT, unlike melee cavalry, Corsairs don't die to ranged cavalry (they murder it too).


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:38 PM EDT (US)     90 / 99       
Yeah but ignorance has to be some of the reason why no 1 used Corsairs, i understand everything you just said, but ignorance definetly has soemthing to do with it, cuz if not people would have been using Corsairs before the patch.

"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
George_III
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:49 PM EDT (US)     91 / 99       
Herm... this is a Highlander thread, not Jaegers, Hackappels or Barbaries...
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:51 PM EDT (US)     92 / 99       
I know.. i made it =D

"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
George_III
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:57 PM EDT (US)     93 / 99       
Lol you're right... xD
Pagasaeus
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 09:00 PM EDT (US)     94 / 99       
Before the patch, the German BlackRider + Jaeger combo dominated mercenary gameplay. Now, with Portugal on the rise, you might start seeing different types of mercs being thrown around.

By the way, the Mediterranean army card has always been considered to be the most powerful Merc card in Age IV, and it still is.

[This message has been edited by Pagasaeus (edited 03-19-2006 @ 09:00 PM).]

justiw
Skirmisher
posted 03-20-06 12:20 PM EDT (US)     95 / 99       
Corsairs and rodelols are awesome now because of their speed. They force you to have a very strong meat shield in front of your light infantry and cannons. They even do ok just running around the meat shield.

Highlanders happen to be the most offensive meat shield unit available. Better than their melee counterparts becuase they have a strong ranged attack. Landers are even comparable to the melee mercs as far as killing cavalry. Melee mercs do kill cavalry faster, but landers are more versatile, and might kill some cavalry from range before they engage.

The highlander is almost a standalone unit now. Before 1.05 they weren't because so many people massed light infantry. Now, the only way to counter highlanders is with falconets + light infantry. Likewise, jaegers can now be countered with either melee cav or falconets (corsairs and rodelols work well too). Pre 1.05 you had to have falconets + Light infantry and/or melee cavalry to counter jaegers.

On the argument of stradiots vs hackapells. Given the choice between the two I would ALWAYS choose stradiots. I do love hackapells, but they are really only useful for villager raiding. Just my opinion.


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-20-06 12:59 PM EDT (US)     96 / 99       
I can agree w that Justi.

Maybe Highlander and Corsairs would pwn? What civ has that combo in the 3rd age? any?


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-20-06 01:28 PM EDT (US)     97 / 99       
Highlanders and Corsairs are redundunt, in my opinion. You either want Corsairs + Falconets or Highlander + Falconets.

You can also get one set of Mercs + normal units out faster than two sets of Mercs.

Only the British get the option to get Highlanders + Corsairs in Fortress anyway. And they have better choices if they wish to do two sets of Mercs. Highlanders + Jaegers or Corsairs + Jaegers is better.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
justiw
Skirmisher
posted 03-20-06 01:38 PM EDT (US)     98 / 99       
I think Highlanders + corsairs might be better against the spanish with lancers, otto with spahi, or french with cuirs. I agree in general highlander + jaeger is pretty hard to beat as far as 2 unit combo's go.

Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-20-06 02:23 PM EDT (US)     99 / 99       
Yeah.

I Like Highlander and a few falconets. Im gonna try using corsairs next time i play, i never really thought of using them agst any infantry, i just used to use them to kill horses =X.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
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