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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Organ guns
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Topic Subject:Organ guns
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Peej
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 08:15 AM EDT (US)         
I just made an unpopular post about muskets... and i'm keeping up the good work.

Organ guns are one of the few things that need to be imporved.

The organ gun replaces the falconett for teh Ports, and is no where near as good, or worth the cost.

IF the organ gun had 2 pop instead of 4, or 3 pop and costed less res. would you buy them?


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Peej the Saint
Red Sox Fan Official Idea maker? What I've done "Thank you, and have a nice day" Eso- Peej_the_Saint
AuthorReplies:
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 08:17 AM EDT (US)     1 / 62       
Organ guns are pretty much fine. However I would probably make them better against buildings (take away the 0.5 mulitplier vs. buildings). Failing that a few more HP.
nidhog_slayer
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 08:39 AM EDT (US)     2 / 62       
they are ok at moment, if they would kill buildings ports would be OP. Oh and 2 pop to organ gun would make them OP, think about seeing 50 full upgraded organ gun marching 2ward your city...

my negative attidute (sp?) against this thread comes from just having 1 thread discuissin organ guns dieing, and then just new pops up

[This message has been edited by nidhog_slayer (edited 03-18-2006 @ 08:45 AM).]

BloTo
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 08:56 AM EDT (US)     3 / 62       
organs are fine, they are cheaper than falcs, and are better against horses and infantry. they have a fast unpack time and a good rate of fire, the only thing letting them down is there seige and there hp. they are meant to be a peice of light artillery used to decimate the enemy army if protected, they arent mortars... they do there job well.

Eso: scuzz
The Bob
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 09:22 AM EDT (US)     4 / 62       
organs do their job fine until falconets arrive and then the organs are sent running until they get culvs ... ports are forced into culvs in a cannon war where as everybody else at least gets a choice
KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 10:43 AM EDT (US)     5 / 62       
organ guns are basically falconets that kill of infantry/cavalry better and kill off buildings less. Ports are meant for booming anyway so just wait until age 4 when you can get hvy cannons/mortars.
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 12:02 PM EDT (US)     6 / 62       
Wow so much misinformation in one thread ...

Quoted from BloTo:


are cheaper than falcs, and are better against horses

Say what now?
Organ Guns do 90 damage a "shot" (full cycle) againt Cavalry, from 24 range, in an area of 2.
Falconets do 100 damage per shot againt Cavalry, from 26 range, in an area of 3.
Rate of fire is identical.
How exactly are they better against horses?

Quoted from BloTo:


they have a fast unpack time and a good rate of fire

Unpack time and rate of fire are identical to a Falconet's.

Quoted from KingSteve3721:


organ guns are basically falconets that kill of infantry/cavalry better and kill off buildings less

Ogran Gun damage to infantry: 180 per shot (full cycle)
Falconet damage to infantry: 300 per shot

Organ Gun damage to cavalry: 90
Falconet damage to cavalry: 100

Organ Gun area of effect: 2
Falconet area of effect: 3

Organ Gun range: 24
Falconet range: 26

So in what universe are Organ Guns better than Falconets at killing anything?


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Yoshiii
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 12:26 PM EDT (US)     7 / 62       
yeah organ guns are pretty weak, also with their 150 hp. veteran abus gun has even more then organ. ah well, i don't care, i hate siege. :@
sandman666
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 12:58 PM EDT (US)     8 / 62       
organs arent that bad. 1 organ does as good as a falc vs infantry and better vs cav. + they are cheaper and take 1 less pop slot. but falcs beat organs and organs are worthless vs building.
@ ender_ward. i know falcs have better stats, but you shoulnd look @ stats, you should test them in scenario editor.
hussars should beat cuirs and rockets should be as good as HC if you look at their stats.
organs do more splash damage as falcs, altough their stats say the opposite
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 03:43 PM EDT (US)     9 / 62       
People always forget Ogun damage cap.

"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
gunner1
Scenario Expert
posted 03-18-06 03:50 PM EDT (US)     10 / 62       
ender_ward don't under estimate the organ guns splash. if it shoots into a crowd of infantry it does 2 splash and a falc does 3. but if it fires all its next 2 shots in different places it has allready caused 6 splash damage.

Scenarios I have made
Single Player-: CAMPAIGN - Christmas - Forest River RPG - Total Freedom
MultiPlayer-: Castle Blood Automatic - Mafia Hitman - Warrior Defence
ESO = sandstorm....................................................................................."I won the bet on 1.04!"
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 04:06 PM EDT (US)     11 / 62       
*sandman666 and gunner1 marked as "people not playing the same game I am*

Seriously, stop inventing pure B.S. Go and play Portuguese. Then go play a civ with Falconets. Then open your eyes.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 04:09 PM EDT (US)     12 / 62       

Quoted from ub3r:


People always forget Ogun damage cap.

Please explain how the damage cap works, exactly. Not how you believe it works, not what you think it should do, but exactly what it does.

The fact is, nobody aside from Ensemble Studios programmers know what the hell it means, or how it affects the game. And more importantly, comparison tests between Rockets (damage cap 600) and Heavy Cannons (damage cap 400) showed that the cap doesn't mean jack. The Cannon always did more initial and splash damage.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
gunner1
Scenario Expert
posted 03-18-06 04:20 PM EDT (US)     13 / 62       
i'm not saying organs are better than falcs just that there splash capabilty is more.

damage cap i think is the amount of splash damage it can cause. rockets will find it hard to score more damage because they can't hit a moving target directly so there splash it what damge's it.
or if a heavy cannon hit 1 unit surrounded by 5 others then it would hit the middle one with its full damage, now say it did 100 splash to each unit it would either not damage one of them or distribue it equally between them.
now if a rocket had the exact same stats (except damage cap) it would give 100 damage to all surrounding units.


Scenarios I have made
Single Player-: CAMPAIGN - Christmas - Forest River RPG - Total Freedom
MultiPlayer-: Castle Blood Automatic - Mafia Hitman - Warrior Defence
ESO = sandstorm....................................................................................."I won the bet on 1.04!"
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 04:30 PM EDT (US)     14 / 62       

Quoted from gunner1:


i'm not saying organs are better than falcs just that there splash capabilty is more.

And this entirely incorrect. Not only by reading the proto file stats, but by watching the units perform ingame/in editor.

Quoted from gunner1:


damage cap i think is the amount of splash damage it can cause.

Here it is again:

"... comparison tests between Rockets (damage cap 600) and Heavy Cannons (damage cap 400) showed that the cap doesn't mean jack. The Cannon always did more initial and splash damage."

These tests were done against stationary units (Janissaries). The Rocket's tendency to miss was eliminated.

What people think the damage cap does, is irrelevant. I too was a firm believer that the damage cap had great importance, until I saw empirical evidence from comparison tests. People don't know what it actually does, it should not even be brought up.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
nidhog_slayer
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 04:43 PM EDT (US)     15 / 62       
i think that cheaper cost and less pop needed has something to do whit those things...
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 05:05 PM EDT (US)     16 / 62       

Quoted from nidhog_slayer:


i think that cheaper cost and less pop needed has something to do whit those things...

Well ofcourse. Organ Guns are cheaper, take less population slots, and they perform worse than Falconets.

But some people will try to tell you that they are cheaper, take less population slots, and that they perform better than Falconets against infantry (some truly deluded will even claim they are better against cavalry).
Now if that is true, then ES really screwed up, didn't they? But they didn't, ofcourse, and there is not one thing that Organ Guns actually do better than the more expensive Falconets.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 05:24 PM EDT (US)     17 / 62       
Ender you impose your will so agrresively concerning falconets. I think you were a falconet in a previous life.

"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
gunner1
Scenario Expert
posted 03-18-06 06:35 PM EDT (US)     18 / 62       
well i was a culv so there. muahahaha

Scenarios I have made
Single Player-: CAMPAIGN - Christmas - Forest River RPG - Total Freedom
MultiPlayer-: Castle Blood Automatic - Mafia Hitman - Warrior Defence
ESO = sandstorm....................................................................................."I won the bet on 1.04!"
The Bob
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 07:53 PM EDT (US)     19 / 62       
they ARE better against cav O_o

i dont care about crappy stats i care about watching half a dozen organ guns murdering cav while falcs kind of slightly scratch them

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 08:00 PM EDT (US)     20 / 62       

Quote:

Ender you impose your will so agrresively concerning falconets. I think you were a falconet in a previous life.

Someone's gonna be putting that in their sig.

The organ gun doesn't have to be good to be unique. It can be bad as well. A reason it is worse than falconets vs everything is because of its cost.

The organ gun shipments are better at making your opponent crapping their pants than falconet shipments are. They're a nice psychological advantage. Send the 3 organ shipment in fort and make 3 from your foundry, and you have 6. He'll run to the bathroom with what's left of his jeans.

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 08:23 PM EDT (US)     21 / 62       
"They're a nice psychological advantage. Send the 3 organ shipment in fort and make 3 from your foundry, and you have 6. He'll run to the bathroom with what's left of his jeans"

WTF?

You openly claim the Organ Gun is inferior to the falconet by all means, yet you claim it has a psychological advantage effect on enemies? Thats like saying "Skirms are better all around than Strelets, but boy, make some Strelets and youll have your opponent shittin bricks!"


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Doggiedoodle
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 08:36 PM EDT (US)     22 / 62       
In my experience, organ guns are better than falcs against infantry and worse agaisnt everything else. Their stats say they're worse against infantry so I think the reason they end up seeming better in game is either because most of my experiences coem from the shipment of three organ guns or the fact that they're firing 6 different rounds results in much less overkill than a falconet would have so their damage is getting distributed much more evenly throughout the infantry even though the area of effect and total damage is less.

This is a forged signature.

A wise Camasp once said, "When in doubt, assasinate everyone."

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 08:53 PM EDT (US)     23 / 62       
6 organs is a hell of a lot of artillery 8 mins into the game. Most your opponent will have is probably 2, 3 falcs tops. So its a mental advantage, not necessarily statistical.

Example : 100 strelets will more than likely cause you to crap your pants than 35 skirms will. But, 35 skirms perform as well as 100 strelets. (those were semi-random numbers thrown in there, I'm not sure how many skirms to a strelet)

[This message has been edited by LO12DS_Mist (edited 03-18-2006 @ 08:54 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 09:14 PM EDT (US)     24 / 62       
Oh boy ...

Fine, keep using Organ Guns against cavalry.
Keep thnking that your 3 Organ Gun shipment is going to scare the pants off anyone other than a total n00b.
Keep thinking that those 6 Organ Guns will do anything against the 4 Falconets brought against you.
Or god forbid those are 2 Falconets and 2 Culverins. Mmm, one shot kills, so sweet.

Ya wanna build crappy units? Go nuts.


P.S.
ub3r, it's not about defending the falconet agressively. It's about fighting stupidity and disproving utter inventions aggressively. But apparently people are comfortable in their ignorance, so I won't bother anymore.
And next we'll be seing people telling others to send Cavalry Archers against Dragoons. Why haven't you heard, Cav Archers rock, and are totally better at killing cavalry than Dragoons. It's true! Don't care about the stats, they are meaningless after all. In my special universe, they just rock.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 09:48 PM EDT (US)     25 / 62       
organ gun would have been good if:

it didnt have 0.5 siege multipler,
it didnt die to 1 shot from culverin,
it didnt have same range as towers,
it ddint take 4 pop when falc only takes 5 and does over 30% better over average of everything.

but these all happened, so they suck for 400 resource and 4 pop. 4 cassadors does every thing other than siege better than 1 organ gun.

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