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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Organ guns
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Topic Subject:Organ guns
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Peej
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 08:15 AM EDT (US)         
I just made an unpopular post about muskets... and i'm keeping up the good work.

Organ guns are one of the few things that need to be imporved.

The organ gun replaces the falconett for teh Ports, and is no where near as good, or worth the cost.

IF the organ gun had 2 pop instead of 4, or 3 pop and costed less res. would you buy them?


__--**""**--__
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Peej the Saint ¤
Red Sox Fan ¤ Official Idea maker? ¤ What I've done ¤ "Thank you, and have a nice day"¤ Eso- Peej_the_Saint
AuthorReplies:
Realn
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 01:51 AM EDT (US)     26 / 62       
3 organ guns > 2 falconets.

That's what makes up for them being weak in general is that one card.


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The Bob
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 03:10 AM EDT (US)     27 / 62       
hell no is 3 organs > 2 falconets

i would trade for 2 falcs any day and most nights too

Factor
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 09:44 AM EDT (US)     28 / 62       
Actually, if we are talking about advantages in battle field, falconets are better than Organ Guns absolutely. Both mathematical reasoning and practice support this conclusion.

I think Organ Guns need some benefit in comparison to falconets since Organ Guns are unique. Maybe increasing their damage to 40, with pop=5 and resource cost = 100wood + 400 gold would probably be a suitable change with the following results:

Organ Gun damage
240 vs Infantry
120 vs Cavalry
120 vs Artillery
120 vs Building

Falconet damage
300 vs Infantry
100 vs Cavalry
100 vs Artillery
200 vs Building

BloTo
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 10:49 AM EDT (US)     29 / 62       
ok ender_ward, i dont mean to "life bash" but i really just dont have the time that it appears you do, to look up every tedious statistic of a computer game. that post took me 10 seconds to write and was just how it seemed to me. sorry if i didnt get things 100% right, im not an anal nerd. i think you need to ajust your sarcastic tone and not throw stats at anyone who is slightly wrong, just a game, who really cares?

to me, they seemed better against cav, i was wrong.
to me, there unpack time seemed faster, i was wrong.
to me, they're speed semmed faster, i was wrong.

are you happy? you dont have to lay into someone for making some slight mistakes.


Eso: scuzz

[This message has been edited by BloTo (edited 03-19-2006 @ 10:50 AM).]

Miain
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 10:57 AM EDT (US)     30 / 62       
2 falconets would kill 3 organ guns without being hit once
BloTo
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 10:59 AM EDT (US)     31 / 62       
falcs are better than organ guns... so what? hussars are better than uhlans, skirmishers are better than cassadors, dragoons are better than cavalry archers. sometimes the unique unit is not as good as the one it is replacing. if portugal had falcs i think they would be slightly to strong since 1.05

Eso: scuzz

[This message has been edited by BloTo (edited 03-19-2006 @ 11:03 AM).]

Anuknight
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 11:05 AM EDT (US)     32 / 62       

Quote:

Ender you impose your will so agrresively concerning falconets. I think you were a falconet in a previous life.

I'll sig it!

*sigified*

Anyway I have to agree

Quote:

Example : 100 strelets will more than likely cause you to crap your pants than 35 skirms will. But, 35 skirms perform as well as 100 strelets. (those were semi-random numbers thrown in there, I'm not sure how many skirms to a strelet)

It is definitely a mental advantage. I would rather have 3 organ guns than 2 falconets though except when my enemy was building a lot of falconets.

(¯`._.[~Anuknight~ ]._.´¯)
Peej
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 12:08 PM EDT (US)     33 / 62       
thx ender for proving my point

as i said... give the oguns 2 pop, and theyre then as good as a falc.


__--**""**--__
''--______--''
¤
Peej the Saint ¤
Red Sox Fan ¤ Official Idea maker? ¤ What I've done ¤ "Thank you, and have a nice day"¤ Eso- Peej_the_Saint
timmac
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 03:29 PM EDT (US)     34 / 62       
if you think organ guns need more health, stop sending them into battles where you do not have a strong enough meat shield to protect them

ports do not win games in age3 so stop trying to win in age3

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 03:47 PM EDT (US)     35 / 62       
Dont let Ender get you all upset lol. He is known for his infinite wisdom concerning game stats and formulas.

Anyways, Ender, like i said before you make it seem as if Portugese CAN TRAIN FALCONETS, they CANT. So people HAVE to make them "crappy" units in order to compete in age 3 w other civs artillery. You cant just make Culverins, a couple Oguns compliment Cassadores nicely. Oguns do do very good against infantry based squads, reguardless of on paper stats.

EVERYONE knows a falconet is better, your not special for pointing that out, the only reaosn people make Oguns is becuz Portugal doesnt have the falconet.

EDIT: I just ran the editor and did me a lil test w Oguns and common infantry vs a Falconet.(This varies somewhat depending on unit grouping and micro) Ogun does 30 damage 6 times in 1 cycle with an area times 2. 30 x 6 is 180 times 2 is 360. If the units they are attacking are bunched up, thats 360 damage in 1 cycle. The falconet has 100 damage with a times 3 area which is 300 damage. If you have 2 Orgun guns thats 720 damage in 1 cycle compared to 2 falconets with 600 damage in 1 cycle. If you add another Ogun thats 1080 damage in 1 cycle compared to falconet 900 damage, repeat this process and the gap continues to widen. What seperates the Falconet is the range, hp, siege damage, and their x3 bonus towards infantry.

So whoever said the Ogun is better against cavalry is correct damage wise.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by ub3r (edited 03-19-2006 @ 04:13 PM).]

WH_demoneyekyo
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 04:23 PM EDT (US)     36 / 62       

Quote:

EVERYONE knows a falconet is better, your not special for pointing that out, the only reaosn people make Oguns is becuz Portugal doesnt have the falconet.

errr.........no

organ gun is much better vs. infantry/cav then falconet (due to the multiple splash dmg), and they r cheaper. port have halberdier, u can take down building with those.

personally i would perfer organ gun over falconet anyday(mainly b/c they r cheaper)


Stop spamming! No one care about ur damn post count!
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 04:40 PM EDT (US)     37 / 62       

Quoted from BloTo:


ok ender_ward, i dont mean to "life bash" but i really just dont have the time that it appears you do, to look up every tedious statistic of a computer game.

Time to look up stats? My man, it's called memory. Playing the game, one remembers the stats of the units one uses. I had to look up nothing.
And I'm willing to bet I play less than you do, since I don't have nearly as much time to do so as I'd like.

Quoted from Anuknight:


It is definitely a mental advantage. I would rather have 3 organ guns than 2 falconets though except when my enemy was building a lot of falconets.

Sure, great mental advantage ... unless your opponent happens to know just how weak Strelets actually are. No competent player will piss his pants at a Strelet army. Only n00bs would panick.

Quoted from ub3r:


Dont let Ender get you all upset lol. He is known for his infinite wisdom concerning game stats and formulas.

What does wisdom have to do with knowing the correct stats for units? As for me being a fan of formulas ... what formulas? Have you seen me post even one? Methinks you confuse me with ultimitsu.

Quoted from ub3r:


Anyways, Ender, like i said before you make it seem as if Portugese CAN TRAIN FALCONETS, they CANT. So people HAVE to make them "crappy" units in order to compete in age 3 w other civs artillery. You cant just make Culverins, a couple Oguns compliment Cassadores nicely. Oguns do do very good against infantry based squads, reguardless of on paper stats.

You aren't comprehending my point, yet again. No, I'm not telling Portuguese players to build Falconets, that's clearly idiotic. I'm telling them to not waste their resources on inferior units.
You need anti-infantry? Build Cassadors. You need anti-artillery? Build Culverins. Then turtle to industrial where you get spammable Heavy Cannons.

Just use the 3 shipped in Organ Guns in Fortress to defend. Don't waste resources on more. Cassadors will accomplish the same job and won't cost you an arm and a leg. Hell you can even ship in 9 of 'em, for 16 total without even building a Barracks.

Like timmac said, Portuguese don't normally win games in Fortress, but rather in Industrial. No point in trying to win when you have to rely on an inferior unit. It would be like building Crossbows in Colonial as Spanish/German when you could Fast Fortress for Skirmishers.

Quoted from ub3r:


EDIT: I just ran the editor and did me a lil test w Oguns and common infantry vs a Falconet.(This varies somewhat depending on unit grouping and micro) Ogun does 30 damage 6 times in 1 cycle with an area times 2. 30 x 6 is 180 times 2 is 360.

Woah woah woah, where did the "times 2" come from? Organ Guns have the SAME rate of fire as Falconets. They do 180 damage per shot (cycle), period. The area of effect does not multiply the damage done by a factor of 2. It means that when an initial unit is hit by the projectile(s), one adjacent unit, all around the initial unit, will also take damage (not the full damage either, mind you).
The Organ Gun does NOT deal 360 damage.

Falconet does 300 damage per shot, and will affect 2 units, on each side all around the initial target unit. It most certainly does NOT deal 600 damage.

And again, Organ Gun does 90 damage to cavalry, every 4 seconds from 24 range in area of 2. Falconet does 100 damage to cavalry, every 4 seconds from 26 range in an area of 3. Area damage is ofcourse reduces from the initial 90/100 for both units.

Organ Guns are not bleeding better against anything. Stop trying to use fuzzy math to make an inferior unit appear better some way. They're cheaper, they take less pop slots, if they were actually better, everybody would be playing with Portugal, 'cause they'd be overpowered.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 04:42 PM EDT (US)     38 / 62       

Quote:

EDIT: I just ran the editor and did me a lil test w Oguns and common infantry vs a Falconet.(This varies somewhat depending on unit grouping and micro) Ogun does 30 damage 6 times in 1 cycle with an area times 2. 30 x 6 is 180 times 2 is 360. If the units they are attacking are bunched up, thats 360 damage in 1 cycle. The falconet has 100 damage with a times 3 area which is 300 damage. If you have 2 Orgun guns thats 720 damage in 1 cycle compared to 2 falconets with 600 damage in 1 cycle. If you add another Ogun thats 1080 damage in 1 cycle compared to falconet 900 damage, repeat this process and the gap continues to widen. What seperates the Falconet is the range, hp, siege damage, and their x3 bonus towards infantry.

So whoever said the Ogun is better against cavalry is correct damage wise.

How exactly does the organ gun do better vs cavalry? You forgot to mention that the organ gun has X0.5 against cavalry while falconet does not. Stats:
Name Hit Points Pop Speed LOS Armor Cost
OrganGun 150 4 4.0 26 Ranged-75% W-100, G-300
CannonAttack Damage: 30 (Siege), Cap: 60, Area: 2, ROF: 4.0, Range: 0-24, Bonuses: Artillery x 0.5, Cavalry x 0.5, Building x 0.5, Ship x 0.5

For Falconet:

Name Hit Points Pop Speed LOS Armor Cost
Falconet 200 5 4.0 30 Ranged-75% W-100, G-400
CannonAttack Damage: 100 (Siege), Cap: 200, Area: 3, ROF: 4.0, Range: 0-26, Bonuses: Infantry x 3.0, Building x 2.0, Ship x 3.0

[This message has been edited by LO12DS_Mist (edited 03-19-2006 @ 04:43 PM).]

Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 04:48 PM EDT (US)     39 / 62       
Havn't got a clue about the mathematics of the thing.

All I know is if I send a load of infantry at 3 Organ guns.. they drop like flies. An entire line of 10~ will drop.

If I send a similar force against 2 Falconets, they likely die but not nearly so quickly. One cannon ball like kills one soldier (depending on formation) and wounding two either side of him. In the first salvo only 2-3 will die.

No clue whether this should happen based on the stats, dodgy AoE effects or whatever but it does.

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 04:54 PM EDT (US)     40 / 62       

Quote:

Example : 100 strelets will more than likely cause you to crap your pants than 35 skirms will. But, 35 skirms perform as well as 100 strelets. (those were semi-random numbers thrown in there, I'm not sure how many skirms to a strelet)

its not pycological effect, it is truely more poerful.

1.8 vet.strelets = 1 skirmisher, yet 2.5 strelets cost about the same as 1 skirms.

so skirms strelets comparison is not good, as skirms is a unit that is more expensive but dont perform proportionally better.

organ gun VS falc on the other hand is different, falcs only cost 20% more but does a lot better in most situations.


Quote:

Methinks you confuse me with ultimitsu

Methinks you confused about formulas.

KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 05:13 PM EDT (US)     41 / 62       
Some things you forgot Ender_ward...
1. cost
2. rate of fire
3. speed
4. the time it takes to switch modes (i.e. attacking and moving)
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 05:20 PM EDT (US)     42 / 62       
Mist you do have a good point about the x.05 toward cavalry i DID forget that, and DO admit to my mistake unlike some people.

Ender - "Falconet does 300 damage per shot, and will affect 2 units, on each side all around the initial target unit. It most certainly does NOT deal 600 damage."

They do 300 damage per shot to INFANTRY, thats it. They do 100 damage to all other units. Im not using "fuzzy math" to try to make anything look better. Organ guns are exremely effective against infantry if you have the proper meat shield.

I agree with Earl, i dont know what it is, but Oguns do mow down infantry very quickly, possibly faster than the Falconet. Ender maybe you dont agree becuz you are totally ignorant to Organ Guns, and incredibly biased to Falconet to the point that you think they do 300 damage to every unit.

Going by what you said about Ogun and splash damage ect. It shoots for 30 dmg per shot, 6 times over in 1 cycle. So its doing a definete 180 damage reguardless of the unit(besdies horse and artllery cuz of x.05). If you add in the splash damage thats 30 damage to two units with each shot, with 6 shots thats ABOUT 360 damage. (You really dont know excact % concerning splash damage, just like i dotn know the excact science on damage cap).

Now a falconet does 100 damage per shot, 1 time in 1 cycle. But they have x3 to infantry so 300 damage to infatry and 100 damage to all other units, If you add in splash x3 its about 900 damage to infatry, but there is alot more overkill than with Ogun. Which might be the reason why Ogun seems to kill infantry quicker.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Doggiedoodle
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 05:36 PM EDT (US)     43 / 62       
You guys can argue the mathmatics all day. It will get you nowhere. All that really matters is in game experience and in game, organ guns are better against infantry than falconets. The math may not initially support that but you forget that because the shots for the organ gun are split up it has much less of an overkill problem than a falconet, so even if the falconet is capable of doing ten thousand damage, it will waste so much of that in overkill that it will still be inferior to 3 organ guns against infantry. I will agree that cassadors are a much smarter choice if you are going to actually build something to counter infantry. Artillery is expensive, and organ guns are not more effective than cassadors(they may even be less effective). Furthermore, the cassador cost is much more favorable to the advance you will have to make to industrial so you can end the game. Organ guns are simply inferior to falconets in enough ways that they are not worth building especially when you can build cassadors.

This is a forged signature.

A wise Camasp once said, "When in doubt, assasinate everyone."

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 06:47 PM EDT (US)     44 / 62       
First of all, it's pointless to compare the effectiveness of 3 Organ Guns against infantry to the effectiveness of 2 Falconets against infantry. Ofcourse 3 Organ Guns will do better against infantry than 2 Falconets. 3 > 2. Even if each individual OG is alittle worse.
That's why it IS a GOOD idea to ship in the 3 Organ Guns. They're effective in defense against infantry. However building MORE is a waste of resources.

But it also depends on one's micro ability. I can use 2 Falconets to kill 12 Jaegers. And the Jaegers won't be able to kil them in time. However, they probably will kill atleast one Organ Gun, due to their worse HP.

Quoted from ultimitsu:


Methinks you confused about formulas.

Why would I be? I even agree with some of yours.

Quoted from KingSteve3721:


Some things you forgot Ender_ward...
1. cost
2. rate of fire
3. speed
4. the time it takes to switch modes (i.e. attacking and moving)

Didn't forget any of it, you just didn't read my other posts.

Cost is less, obviously, which is WHY the Organ Gun is inferior.
Rate of Fire is the same between Organ Gun and Falconet (4.0)
Speed is irrelevant. If you're moving the units, you aren't firing.
Set up time between Falconet and Organ Gun is identical.

Quoted from ub3r:


Ender -
They do 300 damage per shot to INFANTRY, thats it.

And Organ Guns deal 180 damage per shot to INFANTRY, that's it.

Quoted from ub3r:


Im not using "fuzzy math" to try to make anything look better. Organ guns are exremely effective against infantry if you have the proper meat shield.

You did not factor the 0.5x multiplier Organ Guns get againt Cavalry.
You multiplied the Organ Damage by 2 for some reason.
You tried to misrepresent what area damage actually means in the game.

Fuzzy math.

And yes, Organ Guns are effective against infantry. So what? It's not a good idea to build them. It's a much better idea to get to Industrial for HEAVY CANNONS. Or if you're stuck in Fortress, it's better to train Cassadors for defense. They are more effective for their cost.

Quoted from uber:


Ender maybe you dont agree becuz you are totally ignorant to Organ Guns, and incredibly biased to Falconet to the point that you think they do 300 damage to every unit.

Or maybe it's because I actually played with the Portuguese for a good number of games, and learned exactly how much worse Organ Guns are than Falconets.

And don't put words in my mouth regarding Falconet damage. We were discussing whether or not Organ Guns are better than Falconets against INFANTRY. Ofcourse I'm comparing the damage both units do against INFANTRY (180 and 300).
When I was comparing their damage against CAVALRY, I pretty obviously used other figures (90 and 100 damage).

The rest of your post is more of the same. Already debunked inventions that go totally contrary to how the units actually work ingame.

Lastly, I'm done with this thread. If you people wish to continue to use inferior units in the belief that they're actually superior, go nuts. I'm not even sure why I bothered with this as long as I did.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 06:52 PM EDT (US)     45 / 62       

Quote:

Why would I be? I even agree with some of yours.

because i dont remember i had any.

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 07:44 PM EDT (US)     46 / 62       
Dont be mad Ender. You gettin all worked up little guy.

Calm down youngin.

Ender - "And Organ Guns deal 180 damage per shot to INFANTRY, that's it."

I wasnt comparing thier damage, you said Falconets do 300 damage, period, and i told you they do 300 to infatry only. Also Oguns do 180 damage per cycle EXCLUDING SPLASH DAMAGE. Thats why i multiplied the damage by 2 is becuase of splash.

Why dont you tell us all how splash damage excactly works so no 1 will misrepresent game variables?

Ender - "It's not a good idea to build them. It's a much better idea to get to Industrial for HEAVY CANNONS."

This is your OPINION. Although it might be the popular one, its still just an opinion not a fact, so stop trying to morph your opinions into facts.

Ender - "The rest of your post is more of the same. Already debunked inventions that go totally contrary to how the units actually work ingame."

Were talking about one unit, and your comments concerning Ogun damage is "debunked" They do ALOT MORE than 180 damage to infantry in a cycle, the 180 number is not counting splash damage like i sed b 4.



"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
timmac
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 07:49 PM EDT (US)     47 / 62       
one reason why organs are better

3 organs one shot 5-6 villes with less mirco

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 07:55 PM EDT (US)     48 / 62       

Quoted from ub3r:


Dont be mad Ender. You gettin all worked up little guy.
Calm down youngin.

1. I'm not sure how you are able to discern my emotional state remotely ...

2. Nice bait attempt. I ain't biting though.

Quoted from ultimitsu:


because i dont remember i had any.

Weren't you the one with a bunch of villager seconds calculations? If it wasn't you, then my apologies for using your name to make a point.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 03-19-2006 @ 07:58 PM).]

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 07:58 PM EDT (US)     49 / 62       
Why you still postin here on this thread ender?

Ender (10 min ago) - "Lastly, I'm done with this thread."

You already bit.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 08:01 PM EDT (US)     50 / 62       
Nice bait attempt again. And again I aint biting. I had to post here to reply to ultimitsu. And if you clear the fog from your eyes, you'd see I am no longer discussing the thread's subject matter. Thus "done with this thread".

Nice try though, really


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
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