You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

General Discussions
Moderated by Maffia, LordKivlov, JimXIX

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.97 replies
Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » The 13 Polish Winged Hussars card (Germany) is overpowered.
Bottom
Topic Subject:The 13 Polish Winged Hussars card (Germany) is overpowered.
« Previous Page  1 2 3 ··· 4  Next Page »
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 00:08 AM EDT (US)         
No other civ gets such an amasing shipment. I just saw a recording where these 13 Guard Hussars totally decided the game. What was ES thinking when they allowed 13 Guard units to be shipped for free?
The 13 Hussars themselves are worth 2600 resources. The Guard status itself is worth 1600 resources (400 vet + 1200 guard). A total of 4200 resources sent in a single card ... that's nuts!

Look at the options the other civs have:

Portuguese Industrial military shipments:
24 normal Pikes
8 veteran Halberdier (no joke)
16 normal Musketeers
11 veteran Cassadors
7 veteran Dragoons
6 veteran Cassadors + 4 veteran Dragoons
4 normal Organ Guns
2 normal Culverins
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons

Ottoman Industrial military shipments:
10 normal Janissary
8 normal Hussars
8 veteran Cavalry Archers
7 normal Abus Guns
5 normal Grenadiers (no joke)
3 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
2 Great Bombards
8 normal Grenadiers + 1 Great Bombard

Spanish Industrial military shipments:
20 normal Crossbows
24 normal Pikemen
10 normal Pikemen + 8 normal Rodeleros
13 normal Rodeleros
7 normal Hussars
8 veteran Lancers
2 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons

British Industrial military shipments:
13 normal Longbows
16 normal Musketeers
8 normal Hussars
6 normal Grenadiers
2 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
3 Rockets

French Industrial military shipments:
24 normal Pikemen
14 veteran Skirmishers
7 veteran Dragoons
7 normal Hussars
6 veteran Cuirassiers
5 veteran Cuirassiers
3 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons

Dutch Industrial military shipments:
13 veteran Halberdiers
14 veteran Skirmishers
7 veteran Hussars
12 veteran Ruyters
10 veteran Halberdiers + 4 veteran Ruyters
5 Grenadiers
2 Falconets
2 Culverins
1 Mortar
2 Heavy Cannons

Russian Industrial military shipments:
28 normal Strelets
13 veteran Halberdiers
17 normal Musketeers
8 normal Cossacks (wtf? not 10 or 12?)
8 veteran Cavalry Archers
9 veteran Oprichnicks
9 normal Grenadiers
2 normal Falconets
2 normal Culverins
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons (x2)

Not even the French shipment of 6 veteran Cuirassiers approaches the worth of the Winged Hussars ...

What, it wasn't enough for ES to give Germany the best Mercs, they also had to get an 'uber' normal unit shipment, just incase they didn't have the gold for mercs yet? WTF?



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
AuthorReplies:
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 00:44 AM EDT (US)     1 / 97       
generally , i mean generally, no one would ship units shipment in age4, most people only have 4~5 age4 card max and mostly heavy artillery(other than HC, RKT and GB) , factory, and mercs, so powerful age4 unit cards are not as much of a big deal as powerful age3 unit cards.

secondly, ottoman 8 naiders + 1 bombard is the most valued shipment second to this one. 8 nadiers worth 1600, bombard worth 800~ish. thats 2400 worth. considering ottoman's other bonuses are so good, i think this is also over powered.

Thirdly i bet ES simply didnt think german's other bonuses were so good that german really didnt need extra 4 guard hussars instead of 4 regular uhlans.

finally, i do think this shipment is too powerful, however you cant count the entire guard upgrade cost into it. because you wouldnt send the money to upgrade something if you only wanted to use 13 of them.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 01:02 AM EDT (US)     2 / 97       
Well then you shouldn't get Guard Hussars. You should get 15 normal ones, which is stil better than most other Industrial shipments.

With regards to the Ottoman 8 Grenadier + Great Bombard card, IMO Grenadiers kinda suck after Colonial. This kind of card is definitely not as valuable as its resource worth would indicate.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
SLEAK
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 01:13 AM EDT (US)     3 / 97       
Your right :\. I have this card in my deck and this has saved me like 15 games. 15! When they come marchin in with falcs/mortars/culvs, Skirms, Muskets, Lancers, Mercs etc. etc.
Ship this card, add to your army, rip theres in half. 13 free guard hussars + your whole army. Other civs have like a 7 hussar card....(in industrial)

subliminal messages
Can you find it...?

Chuck Norris.

Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 01:21 AM EDT (US)     4 / 97       
Its certainly OP.

Although I would prefer it if there were similar cards for all civs rather than making the card as useless as most normal unit cards are for other civs.

sharpe95
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 03:03 AM EDT (US)     5 / 97       
Its not that bad, i mean your using a card for units which will be easily raped by drgoons or pikes instead of say a factory or an economic upgrade which you will probably need if it gets to this stage of the game. I know if i played germans i wouldnt include it in my deck

Me Grimlock no kisser, me king!!
He is right Predacons unite!
Decepticons. Prepare to face, Fortress Maximus
Luckyass
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 03:27 AM EDT (US)     6 / 97       
are those seriously 13 free hussars?
I always thought u had to pay for that card.
If this isnt the case (i dont play german) it is certainly OP
somme
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 03:54 AM EDT (US)     7 / 97       
I don't really think it's that OP. The only advantage is has over other shipments is the guard status for free. Are we gonna say that Spahi are OP because they get that upgrade for free?

ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 04:38 AM EDT (US)     8 / 97       

Quote:

With regards to the Ottoman 8 Grenadier + Great Bombard card, IMO Grenadiers kinda suck after Colonial. This kind of card is definitely not as valuable as its resource worth would indicate.

8 nadiers made not sound that great, but you have to remmeber that by age4, everyone is shotting eachother's culverin with culverin, nadiers are great at killing culverins.

i think they well worth the 400 upgrade to get them to vet.

Quote:

I don't really think it's that OP. The only advantage is has over other shipments is the guard status for free. Are we gonna say that Spahi are OP because they get that upgrade for free?

you only get 6 spahis at the most at once, and you pay 1200 food for it, where these hussars are free. each sporting 435 HP.

btw 6 spahi is not OP but quite close to OP.

Quote:

Well then you shouldn't get Guard Hussars. You should get 15 normal ones, which is stil better than most other Industrial shipments.

come to think of it, i think this is partly to make up for german's crappy unique church upgrades. when most civ get 2 great UC troops shipment + some kind of bonus people would actually use.

german's:

-free merc is really hard to get in age3, might as well pay for them in age4,

-8 dopps for 2k is a crappy deal compared what everyone else gets,

-the +10% cost/+20% speed is a bit rip off that i dont really see people use.

so in that sense where other civs pay about 2k for a age4 UC unit deal, german has to pay a shipment fopr it but get it for free, and it is slightly smaller than what everyone else gets. (russian get 17 guard hussars for 2k)

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 04-10-2006 @ 04:46 AM).]

jaafit
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 04:40 AM EDT (US)     9 / 97       
It doesn't seem too bad when you remember that the guard upgrade is only for those 13 hussars. I'd rather see more of these shipments for other civs than to see this one nerfed.

agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.
Belerofon
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 06:38 AM EDT (US)     10 / 97       
Was the rec game you saw me vs. Penicillin? Those 13 hussars really saved me for a moment there...anyways. I reckon the 3 winged hussars are definately a very strong card and possibly OP.

Dont worry, be happy.
timmac
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 07:01 AM EDT (US)     11 / 97       
i always know im in trouble when i see those hussars coming out the TC.

I don't know about OP but it is a powerhouse card for sure. Takes up about 26 pop

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 07:31 AM EDT (US)     12 / 97       
The grenadiers aren't as good as the hussars because they are just colonial ones. I recently played a game against a dutch guy who was attacking me with skirms, some musks, cannon and culvs cause I had been recently spamming war wagons for his ruyters, then I send Winged Hussars. They just destroy his whole army and at the end I still have 2 or 3 left.

Definitely a very good card (t4 unit shipments useless? WTF?) and I think reducing it to 11 would nerf it enough. At the moment it's 13 guard hussars or 13 unupgraded (by shipment) uhlans. Hmmm... o_0

Destiny_Devil
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 08:27 AM EDT (US)     13 / 97       
remember though its a royal guard upgrade and it if germany are able to make hussars it will affect all of them but I dont think they can so I dnt think it is worth it
Tordenskiold
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 09:09 AM EDT (US)     14 / 97       

Quote:

come to think of it, i think this is partly to make up for german's crappy unique church upgrades. when most civ get 2 great UC troops shipment + some kind of bonus people would actually use.

Exactly !

Portuguese get 22 fully guard upgraded Xbows from Church + ALL OTHER XBOWS ARE AUTOMATICLY UPGRADED TO GUARDS.

Also, 24 pikemen card > 13 hussar card.


TORDENSKIOLD(1690-1720)

During the Great Nordic War (1700-1720), he was commander of the danish navy, which defeaded the swedish army at Kristiania (modern Oslo). After the war, he was killed in a duel on Nov. 12, 1720 just outside Hamburg, Germany, during a travel to England.

ESO: TORDENSKIOLD
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 09:28 AM EDT (US)     15 / 97       
"Also, 24 pikemen card > 13 hussar card."

Actually that's false. 13 guard hussars beat 24 pikemen every time.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 09:44 AM EDT (US)     16 / 97       
24 normal Pikemen is certainly NOT as good 13 Guard Hussars. You can't really use them as well offensively as those Hussars. They force the opponent to go heavy on anti-cavalry.

They are FREE Hussars. They cost NOTHING but the shipment. 6 Spahi cost 1200 food to get. 22 Besteiros cost 2000 wood to get.

Somebody who needs to swing the balance of power NOW, and doesn't yet have gold for a Merc Army will send these Hussars, instead of a Factory. The Factory will take some time to pump out even a single Heavy Cannon. Those Guard Hussars will be ripping into things immidiately.

This shipment is overpowered NOT just because of their Guard status. Their worth (2600) is unmatched by ANY other shipment in the game. Spahi may get upgraded automatically, but they cost quite a bit of FOOD to send in. They aren't free.

The 8 Grenadier + Great Bombard shipment is stil pretty crappy, even in Culverin wars, because an Ottoman will have Abus Guns, that kill Culverins a hell of alot better than Grenadiers, and from longer range.

The Germans get 12 Dopplesoldners (not 8) from their advanced church and a 10% HP upgrade for them for 2000 gold.

Saying the guard status is no big deal because you can't produce more of those Hussars is irrelevant. You have 13 Guard Units in the game for the price of an age 4 shipment. They're going to be used. Your opponent has to deal with them, not having an equivalent card to counter with. No other civ has that kind of option. Therein lies the imbalance.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Zorba the Greek
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 10:00 AM EDT (US)     17 / 97       
Heya,

is this a complete list of military cards for each civ, or just a list of the most used military cards from those available?

Thanks.

Zorba.


I have not yet began to fight!

John Paul Jones, Captain of the Bonhomme Richard.

http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/EntityStats.aspx?loc=en-US&EntityName=John_Paul_Jones2&md=ZS_Supremacy

justiw
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 12:00 PM EDT (US)     18 / 97       
I agree with one of the previous posters, I forget his name though. I don't care that this card is strong, I just want all civs to have a card of comparable strength.

The Otto artillery card is pretty good, almost as good as the winged hussars, although I would never use it. Grenadiers are better in the late game than people give them credit. That's cool with me becuase I've been using them to kill my unsuspecting opponents. I would choose 6 spahi over this card any day, unless I didn't have 1200f. 6 (guard) spahi might beat 13 guard hussars.

Ports 6 cassadores and 4 dragoons isn't bad. Maybe if it were 6 dragoons it would be competetive. Really though, why do ports need to ship units in age 4, they should have such an uber economy that it doesn't matter. Do they have any other good age 4 cards?

Spain gets sucky age 4 cards. I think that is an intended trait and ES designed them that way. Still 24 pikes isn't half bad, and they might even counter the winged hussars at the veteran level. Why do they need power in industrial age when they own colonial and fortress?

Brits only notable age 4 military card is 3 rockets. It's pretty good, but it certainly doesn't compare to 13 winged hussars. You forget that the brits have arguably the best age 4 card in the entire game, ESTATES.

The french cards are all average. That's pretty much the way I've always thought of the french in this game. I think most people would agree that the french don't need any more power in the late game. Their natural bonuses give them a lot of strength late game no matter what.

The dutch military cards are the worst throughout the game. That was certainly intended by ES. They already have all they need in age 4 (2 HC, 2 factories, tulip spec, maybe a merc army). They also don't really have room in their deck for many age 4 cards.

Russians get a little shafted. 28 strelets and 8 cossacks are laughable. Their 2x 2HC cards aren't bad though. Maybe they should have some unique card that ships a combo of grenadiers and cav archers?

So it really doesn't matter to me if they make stronger age 4 shipments for some of the other civs. Most of them have natural advantages or other economy cards that are comparable to the winged hussars. It would be cool if they made them better though just to make the later ages more diverse.


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
Morningthaw
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 04:50 PM EDT (US)     19 / 97       
its a good card, but i'm inclinded to think its just a feature of germans, i use russian alot and russia's church techs rock, alot better than many other civs church techs...no reason to go running around screaming "OP" about each civs features.
eskouster
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 05:03 PM EDT (US)     20 / 97       
German shipments are _supposed_ to be unmatched in terms of raw value. That's why with most of their shipments they get bonus Ulhans. So yeah, it's probably unmatched by any other particular shipment, but other civs have bonuses to make up for it.

Also, Germans can't make Hussars, so the upgrade actually doesn't mean a lot.

KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 05:27 PM EDT (US)     21 / 97       
guys, you have to understand here, germanys CIV BONUS is a better hc, and getting extra units when they ship a unit ship.
this is like saying that the otto's sett spawning bonus is OP.
but nobody says that because they already know its their civ bonus.
the brits get a shipment of 8 hussars, but germany gets the 13 because its bonus is to get more.
The Bob
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 05:43 PM EDT (US)     22 / 97       
^^ nobody says it cause otto vills take a default of twice as long to build

-the card isnt OP imo

i had it used against me by Love_ the other day and if its gonna be OP chances are he will make it OP but it didnt really change the game too much at all (i had black riders which are still a lot more OP as a card)

BsT_Fei
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 05:43 PM EDT (US)     23 / 97       
It isn't just about the 13 guard hussar shipment. You acknowledge that its absurdly OP, and it is. It's effectively a free 3rd age merc in 4th age. You guys are justifying this by saying that it's Germany's civ bonus - herein lies the problem. Here, we have a civ that has the best card selection by so far that nothing else is even close, the best unique unit in the game (the war wagon), and a very nice early econ because of the 2 and 3 settler wagon cards. Its almost like ES decided to make an OP civ and then when they were finished doing this they thought it would be fun to add cards like the 13 guard hussar to further distance the civ from any others.
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 05:53 PM EDT (US)     24 / 97       
Nobody would give a damn if it was 8 Hussars vs 13 Hussars ... one could just chalk it up to the Germans' free cavalry bonus kicking in.

But it's 7 or 8 normal Hussars versus 13 Guard Hussars. Who here has a problem realising how much more effective guard units are as compared to normal or veteran ones?

Also, if Germany is supposed to have a whole bunch of such uber shipments, then why aren't its other shipments broken in the same fasion?

Their other Industrial military shipments:

11 veteran Skirmishers + normal 4 Uhlans (1865 resources)
8 normal Dopplesoldners + normal 4 Uhlans (2200 resources)
4 veteran War Wagons + normal 4 Uhlans (1800 resources)
13 normal Uhlans (1950 resources)
2 normal Falconets + normal 4 Uhlans (1600 resources)
2 normal Culverins + normal 4 Uhlans (1600 resources)
2 Mortars + normal 4 Uhlans (1500 resources)
2 Heavy Cannons + normal 4 Uhlans (1800 resources)

These shipment values are nowhere NEAR 4200 resources.

Yes, you have to count the guard upgrade because you're getting guard units who will perform in combat as guard units. If you ever made 13 Hussars and no more, as say Portuguese in Industrial and upgraded them to Guard status, they would perform just the same as the Polish Winged Hussars, except you'd actually have to pay 1600 resources first to upgrade them to veteran and then to guard.

Even not counting the guard upgrade, the card stil has exceptional value, as at 2600 resources it's worth even more than the 2200 resources of 8 normal Dopplesoldners + normal 4 Uhlans.

I don't see how anyone can claim the card is not overpowered.

If anyone from Ensemble Studios is reading this thread, please consider changing this card to a move balanced version. Or, as has been suggested here, allow other civs to enjoy the same type of cards (improve existing ones, for example).


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 06:06 PM EDT (US)     25 / 97       

Quote:

They are FREE Hussars. They cost NOTHING but the shipment. 6 Spahi cost 1200 food to get. 22 Besteiros cost 2000 wood to get.

yeah, however 22 besteiros/10 BRs didnt cost shipment, you see, it is either 2k res or a age4 shipment, which could be spend as something else that worth a lot.


Quote:

Somebody who needs to swing the balance of power NOW, and doesn't yet have gold for a Merc Army will send these Hussars, instead of a Factory. The Factory will take some time to pump out even a single Heavy Cannon. Those Guard Hussars will be ripping into things immidiately.

if you didnt have money NOW, you may not neccesarily have a shipment NOW.


Quote:

The 8 Grenadier + Great Bombard shipment is stil pretty crappy, even in Culverin wars, because an Ottoman will have Abus Guns, that kill Culverins a hell of alot better than Grenadiers, and from longer range.

but nadiers can do siege... i knwo nadiers are not as good as abus, but if this was 8 abus + 1 GB, that would be really op.

Quote:


The Germans get 12 Dopplesoldners (not 8) from their advanced church and a 10% HP upgrade for them for 2000 gold.


My Typo, it is still a crappy deal for a UC shipment, +10% hp is only 20, which is damn all. other civs get 26 guard skirms, 30 guard muskts, 10 BR, 17 guard hussar ETC.


@justiw

I think it is not fair to compare age4 unit shipments like that for all the civs, mainly because by then most civ already has some other special advantage and dont really ship any units,


for example russian age4 units shipments sucks, but who ships them even if they were 30% better? i have 2 x 2 HC 1 factory, 2 x age4 mercs, and i dont even have space for that card fortifies everything (which has more raw value than most card too)

« Previous Page  1 2 3 ··· 4  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires III Heaven | HeavenGames