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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » The 13 Polish Winged Hussars card (Germany) is overpowered.
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Topic Subject:The 13 Polish Winged Hussars card (Germany) is overpowered.
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Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 00:08 AM EDT (US)         
No other civ gets such an amasing shipment. I just saw a recording where these 13 Guard Hussars totally decided the game. What was ES thinking when they allowed 13 Guard units to be shipped for free?
The 13 Hussars themselves are worth 2600 resources. The Guard status itself is worth 1600 resources (400 vet + 1200 guard). A total of 4200 resources sent in a single card ... that's nuts!

Look at the options the other civs have:

Portuguese Industrial military shipments:
24 normal Pikes
8 veteran Halberdier (no joke)
16 normal Musketeers
11 veteran Cassadors
7 veteran Dragoons
6 veteran Cassadors + 4 veteran Dragoons
4 normal Organ Guns
2 normal Culverins
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons

Ottoman Industrial military shipments:
10 normal Janissary
8 normal Hussars
8 veteran Cavalry Archers
7 normal Abus Guns
5 normal Grenadiers (no joke)
3 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
2 Great Bombards
8 normal Grenadiers + 1 Great Bombard

Spanish Industrial military shipments:
20 normal Crossbows
24 normal Pikemen
10 normal Pikemen + 8 normal Rodeleros
13 normal Rodeleros
7 normal Hussars
8 veteran Lancers
2 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons

British Industrial military shipments:
13 normal Longbows
16 normal Musketeers
8 normal Hussars
6 normal Grenadiers
2 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
3 Rockets

French Industrial military shipments:
24 normal Pikemen
14 veteran Skirmishers
7 veteran Dragoons
7 normal Hussars
6 veteran Cuirassiers
5 veteran Cuirassiers
3 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons

Dutch Industrial military shipments:
13 veteran Halberdiers
14 veteran Skirmishers
7 veteran Hussars
12 veteran Ruyters
10 veteran Halberdiers + 4 veteran Ruyters
5 Grenadiers
2 Falconets
2 Culverins
1 Mortar
2 Heavy Cannons

Russian Industrial military shipments:
28 normal Strelets
13 veteran Halberdiers
17 normal Musketeers
8 normal Cossacks (wtf? not 10 or 12?)
8 veteran Cavalry Archers
9 veteran Oprichnicks
9 normal Grenadiers
2 normal Falconets
2 normal Culverins
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons (x2)

Not even the French shipment of 6 veteran Cuirassiers approaches the worth of the Winged Hussars ...

What, it wasn't enough for ES to give Germany the best Mercs, they also had to get an 'uber' normal unit shipment, just incase they didn't have the gold for mercs yet? WTF?



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
AuthorReplies:
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 06:16 PM EDT (US)     26 / 97       
Ultimitsu:

In almost every single game I find myself having the shipments available but not yet having the 1500/2000 gold available in Industrial for Merc Armie(s). I often end up sending the 6 Spahi or 2 Great Bombards instead. By the time I collect the gold, I normally have another shipment ready anyway.

Speaking of normal unit shipments, I stil think 8 Grenadiers + Great Bombard is inferior to even sending 2 Great Bombards. The Grenadiers can't really compete with the likes of Corsairs, Jaegers, Highlanders and Landsknecht, you know the stuff normally found in Mercenary Armies.
But two Great Bombards will deal much better with them (with a meatshield, ofcourse, in either case).
Great Bombards also allow me to take out Falconets (even Field Guns) in a single shot from outside their range, if I did a Fast Industrial and my opponent is stil in Fortress for the moment. I couldn't do that with the Grenadiers. Sure, I'd probably get two-three Falconets, but alot of the Grenadiers would die, not just because of their short range (12), but also because Falconets get that nasty 3x damage bonus against them. On the other hand, Falconets can't even touch Great Bombards if you know what you're doing.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 06:37 PM EDT (US)     27 / 97       
you cant compare free shipments to merc shipments, they are just not in the same class.

similarly you canr compare nadiers to cosairs and jaegers, especially if you never upgrade them.

8 nadiers + 1 bombard vs 2 bombard really depends on what opp has.

if this was 1.04, i'd say you are right, but this is 1.05, culverins run the show in late age3 onwards.

i had reached age4 with russian in several games and shipped my 4 heavy cannons, they arrived and only did little damage before they got taken out by culverin, this leads me to think that heavy artilleies isnt as dominating as they were before.

say i hit age4 and i really want to take out that fort. he will have culverins close by to beat my falcs, i dont really want to pay for mortars, then grenadiers would be a good option, but as always, you back them up with something.

PedestrianIcon
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 06:44 PM EDT (US)     28 / 97       

Quoted from ultimitsu:

yeah, however 22 besteiros/10 BRs didnt cost shipment, you see, it is either 2k res or a age4 shipment, which could be spend as something else that worth a lot.

What you're forgetting is that you need to send the unique church tech shipment before you can pay for these units. Germans ship a card, but they get their units for free...and 13 guard hussars are arguably better than either of those shipments anyway.

By the way, I think it's hilarious that the Russian unique church tech is 17 guard hussars...which they have to pay 2000 coin for.

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 07:07 PM EDT (US)     29 / 97       
^ you missing the point.

other civs's UC are actually usefaul so one would send it and use it, then buy UC army. where's german's UC is the least useful full stop, this winged hussar shipment is to make for that uselessness

PedestrianIcon
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 07:22 PM EDT (US)     30 / 97       
I'll try to illustrate my point a little more clearly.

Let's say, hypothetically, that Germans had one of the 'useful' UC shipments, instead of the useless one they have now.

For example, let's take the Russian Bashkir Ponies tech, which costs 2000 coin for 17 guard hussars. Would you really choose to ship the UC card and pay 2000 coin when you could get almost the same thing, from a card, for free?

This free card gives units that are as good as, or better than, the church tech units that other civs have to pay for.

Krator
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 07:24 PM EDT (US)     31 / 97       
Each civ has a special thing.

German has good late game melee cav possibilities.

They're not op. Hussars are perhaps the most easy to counter unit in the game - any 9 Vet Halberdier card will do.


"Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
timmac
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 07:27 PM EDT (US)     32 / 97       
shipping units is effective in age4 in 1v1, usually you save that shipment while ageing to drop out that 13 hussar, 2 HC or that merc army.

mabye not overpowered, but an extremely strong decisive card.

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 04-10-06 07:50 PM EDT (US)     33 / 97       
13 Guard Hussars against 9 Vet Halbs? I would like to see that...

13 Hussars >>>>> 9 Veteran Halbs

Well, I guess Ender_Ward is right... this is Age of Shipments... As you can see, the civs with the best shipments (Spain, Germans) are the top civs, while the civs with the worse (British, Dutch, Russia), are the worse civs...

I wouldn't bother if Germans weren't OP. I mean, if that was a British card, let them have it.


ESO - Walker

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Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
MisterDie
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 07:56 PM EDT (US)     34 / 97       
to be honest i think its just fine. just as teh card says, instead of 13 uhlans its just 13 hussars. however as people are saying, i think its the GUARD status which would make it, if anything, OP
Stophon4
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 08:58 PM EDT (US)     35 / 97       

Quoted from ultimitsu:


generally , i mean generally, no one would ship units shipment in age4, most people only have 4~5 age4 card max and mostly heavy artillery(other than HC, RKT and GB) , factory, and mercs, so powerful age4 unit cards are not as much of a big deal as powerful age3 unit cards.

I would just like to declare that this is the most untrue, wrong, non-researched, noobish statement I have heard in a couple of weeks.

About half my games are vses germans, I dont think I've found one to day that is 2.1k+ that doesn't have this card in their deck.

FYI I think it beats all other t4 unit (notmerc) shipments, someone test it vs 24 pikes.


"Dutch are OP!"
"Iriquois are OP!"
"Stophon is OP!"

tEk Clan #1 US Clan
Solartinum
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 09:33 PM EDT (US)     36 / 97       
This thread just convinced me to add the card to my decks and see what all the fuss is about ^_^
timmac
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 09:43 PM EDT (US)     37 / 97       
i agree stophon, some people just do not research the things they say, opinion or not, somethings just serve zero relavence to any factual information.

Age IV unit shipments are there for instant power in a battle. not every game is all yay perfect eco in the 4th age, nor do some people wait until the 25 minute mark to click the age up button for it.

one could argue that getting into age4 isnt all that beneficial because of the power they have in tier3, but this 13 guard hussar card has enough power for people to get into tier4 faster

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 09:45 PM EDT (US)     38 / 97       
I have tested it stophon... 13 guard hussars completely destroy 24 pikes, with a maximum of 11 and minimum of 7 remaining at the end. If they are veteran then I don't know, but I still think the hussars would win.

I have the card in all my decks, and I notice that basically every German does too, because there's nothing better than getting 4200 resources worth of units and upgrades to appear instantly outside your TC. I don't think any other civ has a shipment like this.

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 10:00 PM EDT (US)     39 / 97       

Quote:

I would just like to declare that this is the most untrue, wrong, non-researched, noobish statement I have heard in a couple of weeks.


either there is a comprehension problem, or there is a "we are playing a different game" problem.


I clearly said generally , that means i was talking about all civs, not just germans.

Does anyone age to age4 just to ship 13 muskts? or 11 cassadores? or even 6 cuirrasiers? or 1600 resources?

NO


they clearly aged to age4 to get access to the things i listed:

heavy artillery(HC, RKT and GB), factory, and mercs


i would like to see one of your non-german deck having a NORMAL unit shipment in the age4 line, stophon.

Quote:

About half my games are vses germans, I dont think I've found one to day that is 2.1k+ that doesn't have this card in their deck.


FYI I think it beats all other t4 unit (notmerc) shipments, someone test it vs 24 pikes.


did anyone say german should not include this card in their deck? or this card is NOT powerful??

Jumbalaya
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 10:27 PM EDT (US)     40 / 97       
You can always stay in age 3 and buy heavy infantry mercs
SteveTheOgre
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 10:56 PM EDT (US)     41 / 97       
Considering that (besides maybe like Spahi) no one is going to use an Age 4 unit card. The two shipments would certainly be used for a pair of factories. Frankly, by age 4 shipments in general aren't that valuable anymore so I think something like the 13 Wing Hussars is appropriate.


(Aside from factory cards and Tulip Speculation as the Dutch, I don't think I've ever sent anything in age 4).

timmac
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 11:17 PM EDT (US)     42 / 97       
i ship in 16 musks and 7 goons before i ship in factories sometimes.
LembasBread
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 00:04 AM EDT (US)     43 / 97       
Played a game where I absolutely owned this FI guy and he shipped that at the last second... it owned a bunch of vetern pikes + lancer... sad day. At the end of the game he just had 10 vills or so and he lived off unit shipments. Those hussar were completely BS. The fact that they are guard is insane, make the vetern and give them 2 more if they really need it...

"The lembas had a virtue without which they would long ago have lain down to die. . . . this waybread of the Elves had a potency that increased as travelers relied on it alone and did not mingle it with other foods. It fed the will, and it gave strength to endure, and to master sinew and limb beyond the measure of mortal kind."

• "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King" by J.R.R. Tolkien

• Hit 2100+ cuetech rating on Sunday, April 17th, 2006

timmac
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 07:02 AM EDT (US)     44 / 97       
but where is the benefit from spending 3200 resources to get into age4? getting to age4 is a great accomplishment and should be rewarded with a powerhouse card, germany just has one of the best unit shipments, some civs like british get the estates card, which is a powerful economical card as well
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 07:12 AM EDT (US)     45 / 97       
"Considering that (besides maybe like Spahi) no one is going to use an Age 4 unit card. The two shipments would certainly be used for a pair of factories. Frankly, by age 4 shipments in general aren't that valuable anymore so I think something like the 13 Wing Hussars is appropriate."

That's very untrue. You know, not everyone has 99 settlers and unlimited resources and a huge army when they get to industrial age. Especially if you're doing an FI, because 13 winged hussars is enough reason alone to get to industrial, because it's value outweighs the cost of getting there.

Krator
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 07:12 AM EDT (US)     46 / 97       

Quote:

This is Age of Shipments... As you can see, the civs with the best shipments (Spain, Germans) are the top civs, while the civs with the worse (British, Dutch , Russia), are the worse civs...

Every civ has some good shipments. You just need to know hot to use them.

As a dutch player, I can safely say the Dutch have the most powerful shipment in the game, (3 Fluyts in age 3) and a few more really good ones. (10 Halbs + 4 Ruyters; 2 Fluyts + 1 Monitor

Of all things that might unbalance Spain and Germany, HC cards are not one.


"Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 07:47 AM EDT (US)     47 / 97       
dutch best shipments? ROFLMAO. 3 fluyt is hte only good one of your list, and only usefull on water maps

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Stophon4
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 08:23 AM EDT (US)     48 / 97       
As spain I often hit it around 15-25 minutes, depending on strategy and intensity of t3 fighting. Also depends my fort placement + time.

Spain - factories, heavy artillery, merc armies, 24 cbows

Germany - winged hussar

French - Curr, factories, merc armies, currs

Russia - woot woot 28 strleets + normal

Dutch - sux, factories + shipments

Get the idea? I Can list more later. In any senese if you dont go for merc armies/heavy artillery, their are awsome unit shipments.


"Dutch are OP!"
"Iriquois are OP!"
"Stophon is OP!"

tEk Clan #1 US Clan
somme
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 09:05 AM EDT (US)     49 / 97       
Hmm I had a look at the card. Would it be OP if they got 9 Gaurd Hussars and 4 regular Uhlans? Because the card says instead of uhlans they get extra hussars which are far superior to normal Uhlans.

PS. Ender, did you get owned by this card at any point? j/k :P


ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
justiw
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 12:48 PM EDT (US)     50 / 97       
It is always the case that a german shipment beats any other civ's shipment. It's just that this specific shipment is sooo much better than anyone else's.

age 3:
9 skirmishers + 3 uhlans vs 9 skirmishers
1000 resourced + 3 uhlans vs 1000 resources

Age 4:
Factory + 4 uhlans vs Factory
13 winged hussars vs ANYTHING (maybe not halbs+ruyters, but that is a hard counter)

Crap, 13 winged hussars is almost as good as 2 normal age 4 shipments by value!!! But, If you nerf it too much it won't be worth using at all. I like the suggestion to do 9 hussars + 4 uhlans, that sounds more balanced to me but still very strong. Another option could be to take away a few hussars, but that has the potential to make the shipment too weak, even though it will still have a high value.

I think that every civ should have 2 powerful and unique age 4 shipments. One for military, and 1 for economy. If I remember correctly, only a few civs have 2 such cards.

Port:
6 cassadores + 4 dragoons
team wood I forget the amount
Not bad, although the econ card only helps in team games.

Otto:
8 grens + 1 great bombard, or 6 spahi
team 1000 coin
Also not bad, same argument for the econ card. Otto should have a better grenadier shipment than they do now.

Spain:
10 pikes + 8 rods or 8 lancers
unique econ card?
Pretty bad, but does it really matter since they are arguably the best in ages 2 and 3.

Brits:
3 rockets or 13 longbows
Estates
The longbows suck, but the rockets are very nice, and Estates rocks.

French:
6 cuirs (don't they have one with cuirs + hussars too?)
unique econ card?
Pretty bad, but the pop effectiveness of CdB is their big advantage in late game.

Dutch:
10 halbs + 4 ruyters
Tulip Speculation
Not horrible, but they're not significantly better than an age 3 shipment. Tulip speculation is a pretty small benefit, and it amounts to less than 1 extra bank of coin production.

Russian:
28 strelets (lol) or extra 2 HC
unique econ card?
Russia needs help. I understand that their military upgrades make their units more cost effective than normal, and that's nice. But, where do they really get an advantage? It takes forever for the cost effective units to pay off, and they almost never survive long enough to see it.


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
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