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Topic Subject: The FCUK Stratagy
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posted 05-03-06 06:25 AM EDT (US)   
The FCUK Strategy


Fast Colonial Uber banK

Introduction

First of all allow me to declare that I am NOT an expert Dutch player. I was simply interested in Dutch banks and explored a few ideas, along with exploiting a few other advantages of Dutch, I came up with this strategy. It may not be the savior for the weak Dutch as it is in 1.07 but I hope it will help you in some way, at the least from my limited experience it is better than most Dutch strategies I have come across, it is a bit similar to the 3 bank FF, but IMHO it is faster and better.

Dutch Unique Bonuses

  • Dutch gets banks.

    What's so good about them?
    --> 4.5 vils on gold
    --> 140 of build xp
    --> The best cost / build XP unit in the game
    --> Does not run out like vils on gold mine

    What's so bad about banks?

    --> Just cost a lot of wood and food.

  • An unique starting setup:
    --> 7 vils,
    --> 300 or 400 gold
    --> 200 or 100 wood
    --> 100 or no food

    Unlike most civ, Dutch can take full use of its starting gold, and Dutch has
    the fastest Age 1 start with 7 vils.


    This game is called Age of Shipmentsfor a good reason, you age, you get better shipment, so an idea came to me - instead of chop wood, lets use the shipment woods for our banks early.

    Build Order

    Game starts, put 4 settlers on hunt ASAP, 3 unpack gold crates, select TC and mash V.

    If you started with if 300 gold, leave all wood alone, if 400 gold, unpack 100 wood also, and build a house. Unpack food too, get everyone to hunt once needed crates are unpacked.

    Queue 3~4 settlers depend on your starting gold, put all settlers on hunt.

    That is right, no mining at all! And no age1 settlers shipments!

    Explorer on food treasure hunting, envoy on sheep + cow finding. if you want, you can eat them early, speed is everything here.

    It should be 1:55~2:05 that you have the require 800 food. click age up with 400 wood.

    After clicked aging, move 3 settlers to gold. build a house if you have none, now queue settlers once you have gold.

    Time is now 3:25~3:35 and you have just hit age2.
    Ship 700 wood and get hunting settlers to unpack the 400 wood crates and build a bank.

    This is something I canít help you with too much detail, you have to keep settlers production constant, also keep unpacking wood, also make banks, and hunt food as well. You also want to get the bank up ASAP, the earlier it is up, the less mining you have to do and the faster you get your next shipment.

    Generally I get second shipment ready before 700 wood arrives, so should you. Send 4 settlers next, ship 700 gold after that.

    Keep building banks, you should have 3 banks up by 6:00, then put all settlers on food, leave 1 or 2 unpacking gold crates.

    At this point you should have near no wood, very low food, and a bit of gold from the banks, how long it takes you to get 1200 food and 1000 gold depends on how many settlers you have, whether you eat herdables, and can your explorer find some food treasure.

    You will also max your pop at 20settlers, if you were lucky and started with 200 wood, or you found a wood treasure for over 50 wood, you can now build a house and keep settlers pumping, other wise you will be 50 short, it takes too long to chop, you might as well leave it.

    Use exile prince to get to age3. Time of arrival will be 7:15~7:45. You will have 1 shipment available and 1 more half way.

    End of BO


    Alternative BO

    1,
    Instead of 4 settlers, you could send 600 woods towards TP/4th bank. It is somewhat risky, but useful against booming civilizations such as British. You will hit fortress slower but with more shipments and bigger eco.
    In this case send 700 food next instead, because there will be surplus gold and not enough food.

    2,
    you could just send 700 gold straight after 700 wood. This will give a faster fortress but weaker eco. Ship 600 wood next for foundry and houses. You would do this if you plan for an all-mercenary powered fortress attack.

    Expanding the Stratagy


    Fortress War

    Here is where my Dutch expertise runs out, and my Dutch frustration kicks in, despite having a blast of an economy, Dutch troops are amongst the worst in the game, you will have no option but win through larger army which is supported by superior economy.

    Fortress game is all about brutal force. At this point, I think apart from mercenaries, the most effective unit combination for Dutch fortress is veteran hussars + veteran pikes + falconets.

    Pikeman replace both Ruyter and Halberdier for anti-cavalry, cheap, fast, and can do siege if required. while hussars are necessary for raiding and cannon killing.

    However this combination means a very cool 850 wood require for a barrack, foundry and stable, then another very cool 800 to get hussars and pikes up to veteran.

    Skirmishers can be used backing up if opponent goes musketeers / janissaries / pikeman heavy, but generally you will face lancers, war wagons, dragoons, cassadores, strelets, longbows and abus-guns, so there isnít much use for skirmishers.

    Halberdiers should only be used like a meat shield or anti raiding unit that stays at home. They are too slow for battlefield charge.

    Colonial Rush

    Option 1:


    Build only 2 banks, use the remaining wood from 700 wood shipment on 1 barrack and 1 house. Split 60% settlers on wood and 40% on food, new settlers on wood. Make pikes, ship 8 pikes next, they should arrive around 5:00, start the pike rush.

    Siege down all his houses and towers, then siege his town centre.

    Make skirmishers in between to cover pikes, ship hussars to keep his settlers garrisoned.

    This rush has been nerfed somewhat since the cover mode nerf.

    Option 2:


    Upon arriving in age2, build 1 bank with the 400 wood, send in 8 pikes and start taking down houses, next send 3 hussars to raid settlers, then proceed as normal, it can turn into a all out rush or fortress + mercenary attack.

    This approach is extremely strong against Portugal, as 90% time they will fail in protecting the building TC.

    Option 3:

    Use that 400 wood on 1 barrack and make 5 pikes, send in 8 pikes, attack with 13 pikes at as early as 4:30. 700 wood next for more banks. Stronger impact on first wave, but likely to run out of breath + very difficult to keep constant settlers production.

    (option 3 was suggested by schildpad, unjugon and stophon4)

    Fast Industrial

    After hitting fortress, if you think he is accumulating troops, and not attacking early fortress, put most settlers on food and a few on gold, ship in 1000 wood next, build the 4th bank, a barrack and a foundry. You should get enough XP for next shipment.

    Now if you see him coming with cavalry raiding, send 9 ruyters; if he is still doing his own thing, send in 4 towers(you get 140 build XP from them too). Next shipment is fort.

    If you have more than 2 shipment accumulated, build a church if you have the wood and get UC, otherwise donít bother. The point of UC is that you will have to send it at some point anyway, and now you can get instant 5 stridiots, unlike mercenaries that take 1 minute to arrive.

    Build culverins if you can see him coming in with falconets, build falconets if it is all infantry mercenaries. Build nothing if is cavalries, we have towers for that.

    Here is the thing, if you managed to not have to build anything, you should ended up with the required food and gold very quickly, trust me on this, you have the best eco any civ can have at this point, maybe only second to British, but British will be running out of near gold mines by now and started to investing in towers for far mines.

    Click aging, and wait for industrial. As soon as you clicked aging, start build decent defense, it is no point to get killed in the next 90 seconds.

    Once you in industrial, if you did not spend your shipments on other things, you should have at the least 1 shipment.

    You may have a lot of gold at this point, remember I told you to build a church? you can either spend 2000 on 30 guard musketeers(very good deal), or 1500 on mercantilism, mercantilism may only give you 2.5 shipment at this point, but that will still give you both factories and 2 heavy cannon, you decide.


    ====
    After number of games going into industrial, I am at a point of wondering if it is a good idea after all.
    Because Dutch donít get immediate benefit from being in industrial, tulip speculation and 30 guard musk are the only good things going for it. after that, Dutch is stuck with 2 of the worst RG units in the game, and one of its best unit - pikeman, cant get the guard upgrade. if you failed to kill your opponent while he is still in fortress, i.e. you let him into industrial as well, then you will experience even further disadvantage through weaker troops and less help from mercenaries.
    ====


    Stratagy Analysis

    What separates this strategy to the rest?

    - Hit age2 very fast at 3:30, age2 shipments are used very early, provides very strong economy and flexibility
    - Save about 500~600 gold on the mines, because bank took over settlers production very quickly
    - Explorer gains age2 stats earlier, he hunts better.
    - 700 wood arrives at 4:10, opens possibility for rush
    - Around 30 seconds faster compared to the old 3 bank FF
    - Better rush protection compared to the old 3 bank FF
    - Equal or better overall eco upon arriving age3 compared to old 3 bank FF


    Deck and Rec

    The games were played on LAN, my opponent is not great, he did Russian FF and sucks at it :P

    But then again, this is just to show you how this BO works. I am not that great with Dutch either.

    Two of these recordings are FF and one of them is a pike rush.

    http://chinainvincible.homestead.com/files/williamvulti1.age≠3rec
    http://chinainvincible.homestead.com/files/williamvulti2.age≠3rec
    http://chinainvincible.homestead.com/files/williamvulti3.age≠3rec

    [This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 02-07-2007 @ 01:02 PM).]

  • Replies:
    posted 05-08-06 02:37 AM EDT (US)     51 / 68  
    That was just a poorly executed rush, ultimitsu. When your Ottoman opponent builds Grenadiers in a rush, that's when you know he doesn't know what the hell he's doing.

    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    posted 05-08-06 02:56 AM EDT (US)     52 / 68  
    the thing is i wonder what else he could have done.

    he scouted my base and he saw no barrack, using jans would be slower to take down my houses and TC. which is why he gone nadiers.

    had he gone with jans, i would still got my barrack and pump out skirms, which rifles him.

    he didnt see a barrack which was why he didnt start off with abus.

    later he had abus, and killed lots of my skirms, but i was able to keep skirms pumping as well get to age3 and shipped ruyters, has ruyters in melee after i killed all abus guns.

    obviously the answer is faster rush of better skills, but as far as stratigy choice i think he wasnt that bad.

    or maybe just because i am not good with ottoman rush myself.

    posted 05-08-06 03:20 AM EDT (US)     53 / 68  
    One always has to get Abus Guns when rushing Dutch, regardless of whether or not one sees a barracks. You can't assume that your scouting has been perfect.

    Jans on their own have plenty of seige power, and are required for when that 10 Ruyter shipment arrives. You don't need Grenadiers. 15-20 Jans raze buildings very quickly, with Abus Help.

    What do Grenadiers offer you? Enhanced seige, that's it. Abus kill infantry better. Jans kill buildings just fine, and do decently against cavalry and other heavy infantry.

    What he should have done was have atleast 5 Abus Guns with his initial wave of Jans. If he doesn't, those Jans will drop like flies.

    The only time it's useful to make large amounts of upgraded Grenadiers is against Russian Strelet spammers (a sea of +6 is so beautiful to see ...) or British Longbow spammers, assuming you have other units (cavalry) to get into melee with them and slow them down. Otherwise, Grenadiers should be stayed the hell away from. Each one is 180 resources down the drain.


    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    posted 05-08-06 10:26 AM EDT (US)     54 / 68  
    Ultimitsu, it sounds like you defended well, but I guess it's just surprising that your opponent would choose grenadiers over the much-feared Maya Holcan Spearmen (as this was Sonora.) Once you have these guys, you can basically forget both the jans and the need for grenadiers. Your abus guns do everything else.

    With the Mayans, you've got amazing siege and great anti-cav. Honestly, most of my Sonora battles lately have boiled down to struggles over who gets to build (and keep) the Mayan TP. Isn't this how Ender_Ward beat lion_ a while back? It's a very sick combo and it seems to be what Ottos usually like to do on Sonora.

    I wouldn't feel bad if your strat cannot answer this combo. I'm not really sure that there is much of anything you could do to stop Otto on Sonora.

    [This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 05-08-2006 @ 10:27 AM).]

    posted 05-08-06 11:48 AM EDT (US)     55 / 68  
    i always send villie over there at start if im not spanish to wall that tp off. really sucks if you have aztec tp and enemy has mayan tp.

    [This message has been edited by Shizzle (edited 05-08-2006 @ 12:06 PM).]

    posted 05-08-06 02:28 PM EDT (US)     56 / 68  
    it was either he didnt know about mayan, or he felt cheap using them.

    i had the choice of using them too, since he left them alone, but i thought screw that...

    posted 05-08-06 06:24 PM EDT (US)     57 / 68  

    Quote:

    while he made

    Grenadier 18
    Janissary 59
    Abus Gun 10

    no, he obviously didnt know what he was doing. who plays otto against dutch and doesnt make abus? thats about as retarded as playing as brit and not building houses(cheleus i soooo owe you a beat-down after messing up that badly in that game). you say he showed up w/ naders and the 3hussar card at 5:30ish. wtf is that about? had he scouted and not found a rax, and had you built a stable instead of a rax like im assuming, your hussars would have wiped his army out easily. had you built a rax and made skirms you also would have wiped his army out easily w/ the 8pikes eating the hussars and skirms eating the naders. and thats not to mention the lack of maya. jan/abus is a ridiculously powerful combo, pike/abus in a team game even more so, and maya/abus is about as op as you can get.

    EDIT: if anything, this just goes to show how powerful the otto rush still is. if he can get to 1900+ by doing it wrong...

    [This message has been edited by slackman42 (edited 05-08-2006 @ 06:30 PM).]

    posted 06-12-06 02:24 AM EDT (US)     58 / 68  
    fellow dutch players, I would like to know if you guys can try out something:

    against ottoman, after hitting colonial, send 8 pikes as first shipment, is it better to destroy his house first or destroy his TP first? obviously the TP takes 4 times as long, but would it be possible to do before his jans come after you?

    posted 06-12-06 03:08 AM EDT (US)     59 / 68  
    Depending on age up, it's better to go after the house(s) first. Housing an Ottoman is the same as killing his next villager or two. It also prevents him from being able to start training Jans from his forward base. Infact, it may be best to:

    1. Go after the house (run if minutemen come out or he garrisons).

    2. Go after the forward base barracks (he should just be finishing building it, run if Jans come out)

    3. Go after the trade post. Run if Jans come.

    Pikes being much faster than Jans means you can hit and run key buildings. At the very least, you'll force him to waste wood on repair.

    BUT ...

    It hurts you quite a bit to delay that 700 wood. That means two banks come online 1:20+ later.


    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    posted 06-12-06 05:12 AM EDT (US)     60 / 68  
    yeah, you see i am willing to sacrafice this time if i can actually get something down, i dont want just hurt something and then forced to run away.

    I guess the TP is too much to take down, it would take over 50 sec to take it down with 8 pikes, which if he shipped 5 jans it will be screwed.

    posted 06-12-06 09:39 PM EDT (US)     61 / 68  
    I have been playing around with this on Sandbox and find it faster to put like 12 vils on gold and ship 700 food after bank 3 goes up. On a good map, I can hit fortress under 7:00.

    [This message has been edited by Moxxa (edited 06-12-2006 @ 09:40 PM).]

    posted 06-13-06 05:20 PM EDT (US)     62 / 68  
    mm>8 pike

    8 pike are absolutely bollucks by themselves


    posted 06-13-06 05:51 PM EDT (US)     63 / 68  
    Kudos for what I think is a pretty good idea.

    I think that if you were to think all the way through on the build order, you might be able to eek something better.


    Check out my Blog at www.lohcenter.net
    posted 06-15-06 08:12 PM EDT (US)     64 / 68  
    Ulti, think you get those links back up? They seem to be dead, and I never got the chance to dl 'em.
    posted 06-15-06 08:50 PM EDT (US)     65 / 68  
    i did an early colonial today vs a port.

    i got hsi tc. scouted with an envoy and a rescued native scout and killed two vills, than i killed his dock.

    that guy musta been pissed, almost killed his xbows too.

    posted 06-15-06 10:58 PM EDT (US)     66 / 68  
    the link is ok, its just either homestead of HG forum is not handling the redirection properly.

    what you need to do is copy the link, paste into an I.E window, delete the "-" between "age" and "3rec", then hit go

    posted 06-16-06 06:10 PM EDT (US)     67 / 68  
    Something to think about, is that with this Dutch have the fastest age up to Colonial. Age up to 3:30-3:45 are 15-30 seconds earlier than even Ottomans.

    I've been using this start pretty much exclusively (except that I don't use the 4 villagers card, I prefer 600 wood instead).

    If/when FF is reduced in power, this is going to become extremely powerful. Why? Because one can have 8 pikes in an opponent's base by 4:30-4:45 (many civs have not even aged up yet at this point), followed by 3 Hussars at 5:00. With more Pikes or even 5 Skirmishers to follow.

    Yes, the Dutch player does put his economy more or less on "hold" for a few minutes, but one can do ALOT of damage with 8 Pikes and 3 Hussars that early.


    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    posted 06-18-06 09:47 PM EDT (US)     68 / 68  
    i think this may work, but onething for sure, you cant make skirms if you want to fortress within 10 minutes.

    I tried this:

    in aging, make 1 house , 4 on gold 6 on food, hitting colonial 2 gather wood and make 1 bank, make another house if 200w start, have new vils chop 50 wood if 100 wood start. keep making vils.

    8pike on houses -> hussar raid -> 700 wood for 2 more banks -> 700 gold for fortress -> 600 wood for foundry + house.

    the other guy will either push fortress while being raided or he may think you are going pike rush, so he ships units and build up a defense.

    at 10:00~11:00, his towers and xbows and musketeers meets your 2~3 falcs + 8 shipped skirms.

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