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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Longbowmen, Strelets and Abus guns
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Topic Subject:Longbowmen, Strelets and Abus guns
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Hockeystar
Skirmisher
posted 06-28-06 08:57 AM EDT (US)         
These units are undestuctible in age 2 with a little anti-cav supporting them. Should these units be nerfed?
AuthorReplies:
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 00:31 AM EDT (US)     101 / 160       

Quote:

It's Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese and Ottoman players all agreing that Longbows are too good against cavalry, but otherwise don't need a nerf, and that Britain itself also doesn't need a nerf

People tend to sacrifice anything as long as they are benefited, regaurdless of anyone or anything else. In other words, many could care less about the balancing, as long as they believe their civ is better than the rest, hence why one usually sticks with a civ, because you have confidence in the civ.

I'm sure everyone would say the same for Cuirs, except French players. Funny how that works ...


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 00:40 AM EDT (US)     102 / 160       
Again I call B.S.

I'm more than likely going back to Ottomans if FF gets nerfed too hard in 1.08, and guess what, I'm stil calling for a 0.5x penalty vs artillery for Abus Guns and a boost to melee cavalry available in Colonial (even though Jans already suck at anti-cav).

Or look at Just a player/Walker, he's a Portuguese player, yet he agrees that Dragoons' ranged resistance needs reduction. And this too applies to me if I stick with Spain.

Or look on this very page a British player has posted his agreement that Longbows are too good against cavalry. And there were more of them on previous pages of the thread.

If we were all so worried about improving our own civ at the expense of everything else, we wouldn't be asking for unit adjustments that weaken our civ of choice.

Whether you like it or not, Longbows do too much damage to cavalry, and Abus Guns take out artillery too easily. Both need to be adjusted.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 00:52 AM EDT (US)     103 / 160       
seriously brtnboarder, that made no sense.

100% agree with ender.

i could care less about what civ im playing, heck, im waiting for germans to be nerfed so i can start playing with them.


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 05:19 AM EDT (US)     104 / 160       

Quote:

People tend to sacrifice anything as long as they are benefited, regaurdless of anyone or anything else. In other words, many could care less about the balancing, as long as they believe their civ is better than the rest, hence why one usually sticks with a civ, because you have confidence in the civ.

I'm sure everyone would say the same for Cuirs, except French players. Funny how that works ...

Am I the only one who understood what he was trying to say. He is not standing up for the british, he is saying that people don't want to give up what works for them, and gives them the advantage over other civs, whether it be massed longbows or massed Cuirs. He was just stating why some are so quick to jump on others opinions to change what has been working for them, nerfing longbows against cavs would make alot of people change their strat and they don't want to lose their current advantage. Thats what he was saying.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 09:18 AM EDT (US)     105 / 160       
^At least someone got it. I guess I'll have to start to "dumb" my sentences.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 10:04 AM EDT (US)     106 / 160       
Umm, one has to consider the context in which he posted that. And the quote he replied to. One also has to consider every one of his previous posts in this thread (and others) in opposition to any Longbow tweaking. It should be understandable then how his meaning would be misinterpreted.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
gazza89
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 10:37 AM EDT (US)     107 / 160       
cuirassiers are only op in industrial/imperial with card upgrades, arsenal etc. Longbows prove a very really threat in age 2 already. Its easy to stop a french player from being able to mass cuirassiers. Its difficult to stop a german play from being able to mass veteran war wagons. Its all but impossible to stop a brit from being able to mass longbows.

and also: longbows deal less damage than abus guns to LI but are half the price. Therefore longbows are like 60% better than abus guns vs light ingantry. They and strelets are used as the direct counter for skirmishers..poor me with the dutch .

[This message has been edited by gazza89 (edited 07-02-2006 @ 10:40 AM).]

Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 11:15 AM EDT (US)     108 / 160       

Quote:

Its all but impossible to stop a brit from being able to mass longbows.

Whoa....

I wouldn't go that far. I agree they need a nerf against melee cav and still maybe a very slight nerf against artillery.

If we see an overall general nerf on lbows, you can say goodbye to British.


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

gazza89
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 08:15 PM EDT (US)     109 / 160       
longbows are used as the direct counter to skirmishers, when infact they should break even. The brits are amazing boomers and would do fine if longbows were just average units, like skirmishers, who are they to take out heavy infantry.
KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 09:43 PM EDT (US)     110 / 160       

Quote:

He was just stating why some are so quick to jump on others opinions to change what has been working for them, nerfing longbows against cavs would make alot of people change their strat and they don't want to lose their current advantage. Thats what he was saying.

a massing longbow strat?
wow, where is that? link?

they dont want to lose their current advantage?
they already have a advantage, and nowhere does it say that longbows have an advantage of beating cav.

heck, it even says cav beats longbows.

Quote:

^At least someone got it. I guess I'll have to start to "dumb" my sentences.

i got what you were saying.
you just didnt say it in the right place or in the right way.


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 07-03-06 02:04 AM EDT (US)     111 / 160       

Quote:

they dont want to lose their current advantage?
they already have a advantage, and nowhere does it say that longbows have an advantage of beating cav.

No I ment that british players don't want to lose their current advantage against other colonial age civ.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-03-06 11:03 AM EDT (US)     112 / 160       

Quote:

a massing longbow strat?
wow, where is that? link?

If you need a strategy to tell you how to mass longbows, you might want to just stop playing AoE3 right now.

Quote:

they dont want to lose their current advantage?
they already have a advantage, and nowhere does it say that longbows have an advantage of beating cav.

Britain's three strengths are Rockets, massed longbows, house booming. All of which take until around the 9-11 minute mark to even BE possible units or strategies to make effective. Against the aggressive FF or rush, sticking in colonial and spamming lonwbos will get owned by falcs.

And I don't understand the second part of your sentence, that "nowhere does it say longbows have an advantage of beating cav". But I can tell you that longbows when massed can take on a pretty hefty group of melee cav.

Quote:

i got what you were saying.
you just didnt say it in the right place or in the right wa

Well of course you are going to claim that you understood it, even though you said you didn't understand it, you don't want to appear stupid, it's okay, I get it ..

And I didn't say it at the right place? Um, I'm pretty sure I said it, regaurdless of if it was the "perfect" time, and I certainly think it was an appropriate time to say it.

And what does "or in the right wa"? Do you mean "way"? Because how the hell am I going to get my message through by another method other than using words on here, I can't sign language it to you.

You really should consider learning grammer and vocabulary before posting pointless posts.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-03-06 11:46 AM EDT (US)     113 / 160       

Quote:

If you need a strategy to tell you how to mass longbows, you might want to just stop playing AoE3 right now.

Sarcasm FTW. You might just want to switch your English teacher right now.

Quote:

Britain's three strengths are Rockets, massed longbows, house booming. All of which take until around the 9-11 minute mark to even BE possible units or strategies to make effective. Against the aggressive FF or rush, sticking in colonial and spamming lonwbos will get owned by falcs.

Right.

Thats why I've lost to several Brit longbow massers who hit me around 7 minutes with 20+ longbows.

Its practically impossible to stop a good raid from a good, numerous amount of them, because they have such a long range, they trap you indoors (my opponents split up their longbows in groups and just kept flooding me with them)

2 falcs at 7 minutes? Nah, there's pikes for those.

House booming? I told you exactly the amount of time it takes for the vil to pay for itself. For the Brit to get an advantage, it takes approximately 4 minutes. Right, 9-11 minutes.

Quote:

And I didn't say it at the right place? Um, I'm pretty sure I said it, regaurdless of if it was the "perfect" time, and I certainly think it was an appropriate time to say it.

No. That timing was horrible, considering the context of the post and the post you were replying to.

It made very little sense, if any.

Quote:

You really should consider learning grammer and vocabulary before posting pointless posts.

This is coming from the person who doesn't understand sarcasm.

Right.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 07-03-06 01:11 PM EDT (US)     114 / 160       

Quote:

If you need a strategy to tell you how to mass longbows, you might want to just stop playing AoE3 right now.

oooh. right. i was talking to brtnboarder.

this is what i meant to say:

THIS IS SARCASM-->>>>a massing longbow strat?
wow, where is that? link?<<<----END SARCASM

Quote:

And I don't understand the second part of your sentence, that "nowhere does it say longbows have an advantage of beating cav". But I can tell you that longbows when massed can take on a pretty hefty group of melee cav.

this is what i would say to that:

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

I suggest reading comprehension lessons. Stat.

of course they can take on cav, thats why i said it.
he said that nerfing them against cav would take away their bonus, which, is non-existant. i was just pointing it out...sheesh.


Quote:

And what does "or in the right wa"? Do you mean "way"? Because how the hell am I going to get my message through by another method other than using words on here, I can't sign language it to you.

what the hell?

Quoted from me:

i got what you were saying.
you just didnt say it in the right place or in the right way.

you just quoted it wrong, again, think before you post.
unless you did it on purpose, which seems unlikely because of your mental level.

Quote:

Well of course you are going to claim that you understood it, even though you said you didn't understand it, you don't want to appear stupid, it's okay, I get it ..

THIS IS SARCASM--->whatever you say, almighty<---END SARCASM


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-03-06 01:28 PM EDT (US)     115 / 160       
I'm countering sarcasm with sarcasm, but he really wasn't being that sarcastic because he presents himself as a huge n00b.

And there is no way in hell a Britain player will have 20 longbows and 5 pikes at your doorstep before 7 min. Even so ... you use the military you aged up to fortress with (possibly skirms?) to kill of pikes and use falcs to crush longbows. I've never encountered a British player that hasn't gone fortress before 9 minutes, it's pretty stupid not to IMO.

And 4 minutes? Maybe four minutes after the initial house boom begins, at 5-6 minutes, and then 4 more minutes to take advantage of it, so yea 9-10 minutes ... starting it during advancing is suicidal because you need the wood for a barracks, since you certainly can't FF due to the VS you spent on food vs wood. A well executed aggressive FF can certainly be dished out before 10 minutes, if not, and hopefully, earlier.

Quote:

Thats why I've lost to several Brit longbow massers who hit me around 7 minutes with 20+ longbows.

And there is no way in hell a Britain player will have 21 longbows and 5 pikes at your doorstep before 7 min. Even so ... you use the military you aged up to fortress with (possibly skirms?) to kill of pikes and use falcs to crush longbows. I've never encountered a British player that hasn't gone fortress before 9 minutes, it's pretty stupid not to IMO.

In order to even HAVE that army at your base by that time (6 lbs shipped in, 3 groups of 5 created, 1 group of 5 pikes), it requires 2 minutes of training time, and that's if you were able to continue pumping them consecutively, which combined with house booming, would be difficult. Then they have to move them to your base, which takes another 30 seconds, maybe less if they forward based. So they can start pumping these longbows by 5:30, without stopping? It may be possible but still against MM, 2 falcs ... yea not fun for the british player, especially when you potentially have another shipment of skirms/cass/longbows arriving.

And they would be plain stupid to do it against you, a Russian player. Strelets, when they enclose on longbows (or cossacks which will rip the lbows apart, or slow them down, allowing the strelets to kill them) will rip them to pieces, strelets are basically watered down skirms that work in larger numbers.

Quote:

This is coming from the person who doesn't understand sarcasm.

Right.

I understand all the elements of the English language very well thank you very much. And if I had to choose, I'd certainly pick grammar and correct spelling over sarcasm. And sarcasm is more entertaining and much easier to understand in real life, than on forums where the body langauge depends on bold or italic text.

Quote:

No. That timing was horrible, considering the context of the post and the post you were replying to.

It made very little sense, if any.

I don't remember asking for your opinion. You seem to have many issues with everyone at these forum, seeing as you start quote wars in nearly every thread. So from now on, I'm going to do my best to ignore you.

Quote:

unless you did it on purpose, which seems unlikely because of your mental level.

So someone who cannot formulate proper sentences has a higher mental level than I? Your lack of intelligence is stunning.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_

[This message has been edited by Brtnboarder495 (edited 07-03-2006 @ 03:19 PM).]

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-03-06 02:54 PM EDT (US)     116 / 160       

Quote:

I don't remember asking for your opinion.

Thats fact.

Not opinion.

Quote:

So from now on, I'm going to do my best to ignore you.

Heh, we have another ub3r on this forum.

Quote:

And there is no way in hell a Britain player will have 21 longbows and 5 pikes at your doorstep before 7 min. Even so ... you use the military you aged up to fortress with (possibly skirms?) to kill of pikes and use falcs to crush longbows. I've never encountered a British player that hasn't gone fortress before 9 minutes, it's pretty stupid not to IMO.

In order to even HAVE that army at your base by that time (6 lbs shipped in, 3 groups of 5 created, 1 group of 5 pikes), it requires 2 minutes of training time, and that's if you were able to continue pumping them consecutively, which combined with house booming, would be difficult. Then they have to move them to your base, which takes another 30 seconds, maybe less if they forward based. So they can start pumping these longbows by 5:30, without stopping? It may be possible but still against MM, 2 falcs ... yea not fun for the british player, especially when you potentially have another shipment of skirms/cass/longbows arriving.

And they would be plain stupid to do it against you, a Russian player. Strelets, when they enclose on longbows (or cossacks which will rip the lbows apart, or slow them down, allowing the strelets to kill them) will rip them to pieces, strelets are basically watered down skirms that work in larger numbers.

Skirms with Russians. Right.

Strelets can't enclose longbows if the longbows stay at range.

Also, there's no way any Russian player will hit fort at 7 minutes with any politician other than exiled prince, so age-up units are discounted in this case.

In fact, if I were to FF, I'd be dealing with 30 longbows, not 20, because I would hit fort @ 8 minutes. 2 falcs? Have to wait for another 40 seconds, another 5 longbows, possibly more.

If I didn't FF, I would have crappy units against longbows, since cossacks are one of the worst cavalry to use against them (horrible HP) and 5 pikes would own me.

No falcs, either.

Quote:

I understand all the elements of the English langauge very well thank you very much.

Here's what you said:

I understand all the elements of the English langauge very well thank you very much.

Corrected:

I understand all the elements of the English language very well, thank you very much.

Mmm. So much for understanding.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-03-06 03:23 PM EDT (US)     117 / 160       
If you don't Britain as Russia your just stupid then, 13 strelets>5 or 6longbows. Keep the strelets coming in, back it up with grenaiders, raid with cossacks. I don't even know why I was trying to tell you why Russians need to defend against Britain. Britain is not a rushing civ, if anything Britain should have the hard time against Russia, since they would be defending. Britain has absolutely nothing in age 2 to take out grenaiders (except for expensive and crappy hussars, in which you can use muskets or focus fire your strelets.

Not to mention that 10 strelets are 100 VS cheaper than 5 longbowmen ...


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 07-03-06 04:35 PM EDT (US)     118 / 160       

Quote:

I understand all the elements of the English langauge very well thank you very much.

Quote:

If you don't Britain as Russia your just stupid then, 13 strelets>5 or 6longbows.

Say what?!?!?!?!?!

I don't Britain as Russia. But then, I don't Russia as Britain or cow as dog either.


A brit lbow rush can work. It can fail too. FF is not the end-all-be-all strat, thankfully. I would never play. I've used it and had it work but I've used it and had it fail.


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-03-06 08:28 PM EDT (US)     119 / 160       

Quote:

Not to mention that 10 strelets are 100 VS cheaper than 5 longbowmen ...

5 longbows>10 strelets.

Let me demonstrate.

Test One: 5 longbows win. 1 longbow remaining, approx. 1/3 health.

Test info:

Player 1: Human controlled, Russian civ. (important to set your civ as Russian or else your strelets will have 90 HP and boosted attack. You need Russian strelets, which have 72 HP.)

Player 2: Computer controlled, British civ.

[JPEG, (322.40 KB)]

Test begins, both sides begin to fire. One unit on both sides is dead. (due to the fact that I microed the strelets to kill the one longbow, purposely handicapping the Brits.)

[JPEG, (340.93 KB)]
4 strelets remain. You can see that the computer isn't being controlled, 3 strelets are at near 0 HP. Had a human been microing the longbows, the longbows would most definitely have won.

Last strelet dies.
[JPEG, (292.86 KB)]

I microed the strelets in this case, and the comp, posessing the stupid AI that it does, fires only when my strelets fire on the longbows, so the comp really doesn't fire at max range. Longbows should always fire first.

This test was not fair at all, it was lopsided greatly in the strelets' favor.

Would you like test 2? Not convinced? I'll gladly perform another one and post the results of that (microing the longbows instead)

Quote:

Britain is not a rushing civ, if anything Britain should have the hard time against Russia,

Doesn't mean they can't rush.

Tell me, whats stopping a Brit from rushing?

It may not be as great as other civs, but doesn't mean they can't rush.

I've been slaughtered by rushing Brits. I know its possible.

In fact, the few games I played as Brits all involved rushing.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-03-06 11:32 PM EDT (US)     120 / 160       

Quote:

Tell me, whats stopping a Brit from rushing?

Nothing really, any civ could rush, but they don't have the advantages that the Dutch, Russian and Ottoman have. That's like telling a Russian player to FI.

Quote:

I don't Britain as Russia. But then, I don't Russia as Britain or cow as dog either.

put a rush inbetween don't and Britain, sorry it's been a long day.

And obviously the longbows will come out on top, strelets in melee though with cossacks running around... or the cossacks forcing the longbows into melee with strelets. And since the Russian player will often advance before the Britain one, and already have a barracks up, they can start shipping in the 13 strelets and create 10 more. By the time the Russian player is 1/4 of the way through producing it's 10 strelets, the Britain player will hit Age2, and then have the construct his barracks and create 5 longbows while he ships 6 more. Hmm .. 20 strelets against 5 or 6 longbows? It really depends on how each player plays though, a few seconds of production time could make the difference, but since 5 longbows cost around 100VS more than 10 strelets it's pretty obvious the strelets should lose.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_

[This message has been edited by Brtnboarder495 (edited 07-03-2006 @ 11:43 PM).]

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 05:44 AM EDT (US)     121 / 160       

Quote:

put a rush inbetween don't and Britain, sorry it's been a long day.

Your English skills need fine-tuning.

Bad capitalization, grammar usage, etc. Yet you claim to know everything about it. Especially sarcasm.

Quote:

And obviously the longbows will come out on top, strelets in melee though with cossacks running around... or the cossacks forcing the longbows into melee with strelets. And since the Russian player will often advance before the Britain one, and already have a barracks up, they can start shipping in the 13 strelets and create 10 more. By the time the Russian player is 1/4 of the way through producing it's 10 strelets, the Britain player will hit Age2, and then have the construct his barracks and create 5 longbows while he ships 6 more. Hmm .. 20 strelets against 5 or 6 longbows? It really depends on how each player plays though, a few seconds of production time could make the difference, but since 5 longbows cost around 100VS more than 10 strelets it's pretty obvious the strelets should lose.

Excuses.

Those are simply all excuses.

Just because you don't know how to keep pace as Brits against a Russian strelet rusher doesn't mean others don't either.

Believe me, I've experienced it first-hand. Several 2k Brit players have beat my Russians by going all out longbows and delaying their fort time by about 5-6 minutes. I couldn't have done anything against these guys, not even FF, because that would have been too slow to do. Rush, my rush got slaughtered.

If 5 longbows beat 10 strelets when the strelets fire first and kill 1 longbow before the longbows fire, obviously the longbows are much better.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 11:24 AM EDT (US)     122 / 160       
Mist is 100% right.

Cossacks do NOT rip apart longbows, because at the given stage of the game (colonial) cossacks are probably the worst cavalry unit in the game. Definitely worse than uhlans, and probably slightly worse than hussars.

Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 12:04 PM EDT (US)     123 / 160       

Quote:

Cossacks do NOT rip apart longbows, because at the given stage of the game (colonial) cossacks are probably the worst cavalry unit in the game. Definitely worse than uhlans, and probably slightly worse than hussars.

It's been a while since I played a 1v1 against Russians, but the last time I did he was ranked a few levels higher than me and I beat his strelet rush and when he tried to save himself with cossacks it didn't work at all. For the ones that made it to the lbows without dying, there were a few pikes waiting for them.

The only real problem Brits have against a strelet rush is if the British player is slower. If you let them get too far ahead then you'll get overwhelmed, but if you scout well and find the forward blockhouse as it's being built and you keep up lbow production it's good-bye to the russian player.


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

BeachBum
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 01:09 PM EDT (US)     124 / 160       
theres no question that russia>brits in 1v1s.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 01:14 PM EDT (US)     125 / 160       

Quote:

Cossacks do NOT rip apart longbows, because at the given stage of the game (colonial) cossacks are probably the worst cavalry unit in the game. Definitely worse than uhlans, and probably slightly worse than hussars.

That's not the point, the point is if microed properly, the cossacks will force a good percentage of those longbows into melee mode, rendering them useless since they have horrible HP and a horrible hand attack, their range and decent ranged damage is all they have going for them. Even if you lose some cossacks (which came for free via shipments), they still would have allowed your 20 or so strelets to tear the longbows to pieces, which was your goal.

This has already been covered, massed longbows will own melee calvary, so obviously cossacks, being the weakest of the melee calvary will directly lose to longbows with no backup, they act as a meat shield. Or you can just cut off Britain's wood supply, that will ensure a victory.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
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