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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Longbowmen, Strelets and Abus guns
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Topic Subject:Longbowmen, Strelets and Abus guns
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Hockeystar
Skirmisher
posted 06-28-06 08:57 AM EDT (US)         
These units are undestuctible in age 2 with a little anti-cav supporting them. Should these units be nerfed?
AuthorReplies:
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 01:34 PM EDT (US)     126 / 160       
Its much easier to kill a Russian's food supply than cut off a Brit's wood supply.

This is because hunting changes spots quickly, and can easily be spotted through fog of war.

So, cutting off wood supply is not easy, since there are about 1k worth of straggler trees around the TC, and tons more behind.

Quote:

That's not the point, the point is if microed properly, the cossacks will force a good percentage of those longbows into melee mode, rendering them useless since they have horrible HP and a horrible hand attack, their range and decent ranged damage is all they have going for them. Even if you lose some cossacks (which came for free via shipments), they still would have allowed your 20 or so strelets to tear the longbows to pieces, which was your goal.

You can't do that with 5 cossacks.

With 15 longbows and 5 pikes you can deter 5 cossacks and 20 strelets. Hell, I'd be willing to put 10 longbows and 5 pikes against 5 cossacks and 20 strelets.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 01:54 PM EDT (US)     127 / 160       

Quote:

That's not the point, the point is if microed properly, the cossacks will force a good percentage of those longbows into melee mode, rendering them useless since they have horrible HP and a horrible hand attack, their range and decent ranged damage is all they have going for them. Even if you lose some cossacks (which came for free via shipments), they still would have allowed your 20 or so strelets to tear the longbows to pieces, which was your goal.

Yes of course it's the point. You said cossacks rip apart strelets, and now you're saying all they do is force some (not all, or most) of them into melee, so obviously you've realised how wrong your statement was.

Oh, and I can fire with longbows at your cossacks, then move way back, and since your cossacks have more speed they'll catch up to me faster, allowing me to slaughter your cossacks while staying out of range of your strelets, which wouldn't exactly tear the longbowmen apart even if they were in range.

And FYI, longbows have a hand attack of 11 which can hardly be described as horrible, it's the more that that of a veteran pikeman, the same as a rodelero and only 2 (15%) less than a musketeer.

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 02:22 PM EDT (US)     128 / 160       

Quote:

You said cossacks rip apart strelets,

You must mean longbows.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 03:37 PM EDT (US)     129 / 160       
How the hell can longbows run from cossacks? They have lower speed in general, let alone when being attacked.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
LoH_Numa1
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 04:27 PM EDT (US)     130 / 160       
lbows are about the only strong thing that the brits have going for them.

I don't think that it's very effective to just spam them alone.

I think on balance, given the FF orgy that has made colonial warfare pretty much rare, I think the Brits are pretty balanced.

Abus guns....just a tad op for my taste, but I'm not going to complain about it. Otts gotta have something going for them too.


Check out my Blog at www.lohcenter.net
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 04:37 PM EDT (US)     131 / 160       
You know how I wish they'd "nerf" FF? By making reaching Industrial easier. British would really shine there with their Rockets (which are currently the best heavy artillery, because they kill ranged and melee cav, their direct counters, very well).

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 04:52 PM EDT (US)     132 / 160       
you mean make brittish op, especially in team games: Do FI, send 2 factories, estates, 3 rockets and gg

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 05:03 PM EDT (US)     133 / 160       

Quote:

You know how I wish they'd "nerf" FF? By making reaching Industrial easier.

I'd really rather they didn't. As it is now, jump over the 1st 2 ages as fast as possible then pick better shipments than your enemy. In that case it would be skip 3 of the 5 ages as fast as possible and shipments.

Why not just start custom games and start it in fortress or industrial?


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 10:12 PM EDT (US)     134 / 160       

Quote:

You know how I wish they'd "nerf" FF? By making reaching Industrial easier. British would really shine there with their Rockets (which are currently the best heavy artillery, because they kill ranged and melee cav, their direct counters, very well).

Lame.

Burn the first 4 ages, why don't you.

Quote:

How the hell can longbows run from cossacks? They have lower speed in general, let alone when being attacked.

Reality check here.

Longbows have a huge range. A couple shots fired and they can shuffle back, and the strelets will scramble to catch up. Since units can't fire while moving, the longbows turn around and kill the unsupported cossacks, despite having 2-3 of them in melee.

Cossacks with no strelet support=dead cossacks.

Hell, you can walk your longbows back and set up your pikes, waste the cossacks while raining down death on the strelets.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 10:20 PM EDT (US)     135 / 160       

Quote:


Burn the first 4 ages, why don't you.

Well most civs (aside from Dutch, Russia and Ottomans) are just so generic and boring in Colonial. A few get more interesting in Fortress. But the entire complement of units at one's disposal, and some of the most fun units (heavy artillery) only become available in Industrial.

And it's "burn" the first three ages, thank you very much.

If FF gets hurt too much, instead of German, Portuguese and Ottomans rushes, FF and FI, all you're going to see is Ottoman rushes, Russian rushes, and Dutch turtling.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 07-04-2006 @ 10:23 PM).]

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 10:37 PM EDT (US)     136 / 160       
You're going to be dealing with more balance changes if you lessen the cost of Industrial.

Look at what shipments Brits get.

8 vils in fort. Estates, 20 vils from manors. 2 factories which allow them to get THE BEST artillery in the game. Yeomen, which gives them guard longbows which decimate everything.

What do the vils do? Push the Brit's econ over the edge, simply rocket (lol) him into Industrial. With that kind of econ, I don't think resource cards are needed to go to Industrial (do Brits get 1k coin?)

Once he's in Industrial, he still has an easy time, because he's been making longbows continually, the best light infantry in the game. Coupled with a fort and some decent outposts, the Brit gets into Industrial safely, sends 3 rockets(best age 4 artillery shipment of ANY civ), and begins the offensive. He gets estates, begins pumping longbows and supplementing a batch of dragoons every now and then, and gets 2 factories out to get MORE rockets.

His economy? His economy is GOOD, fueled with 8 vil shipment instead of resources in fort, estates, 2 factories pumping units freeing up resources for other things, manors that give him a free vil every 2 minutes, and continual vil production from one or even two, hell, 3, TCs.

Damn.

Quote:

A few get more interesting in Fortress. But the entire complement of units at one's disposal, and some of the most fun units (heavy artillery) only become available in Industrial.

Complement? You must be kidding me, I nearly always see one or two-unit spams by the top 4 civs in any strat.

Germans? WW.(and free uhlans. POSSIBLY falcs, definitely HC.)
Ports? Dragoons.(with HC and *gasp*some cassadores.)
Brits? Longbows.(occasional dragoon, rockets.)
French? Cuirs. (usual artillery culprit, possibly skirms?)

These one or two unit combinations cover all counters in age 4, there's no reason to use your "full complement" unless your civ is in the bottom 4 for Industrial, IE Ottos, Dutch, Russians, and Spanish.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 07-05-06 01:12 AM EDT (US)     137 / 160       

Quote:

Well most civs (aside from Dutch, Russia and Ottomans) are just so generic and boring in Colonial.

So why not make colonial more interesting? I would rather see gameplay viable from colonial onward than to nerf FF so everyone just wants to play in Industrial.

Quote:

(do Brits get 1k coin?)

Yes.

Quote:

You're going to be dealing with more balance changes if you lessen the cost of Industrial.

Yeah, some stuff would have to get changed beyond belief. I think it would get the civs to be more generic, because you aren't going to have things like the 8 vil shipment, and you would have to add factories to the civs that only have one, because they'd be too weak without it.

I think it's a poor idea. I would probably be unhappy with the game if that happened.


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

LoH_Numa1
Skirmisher
posted 07-05-06 10:18 AM EDT (US)     138 / 160       
It's the classic race to the bottom.

Skirm wars anyone?


I think that it takes far more skill to have a competitive, engaging war during Colonial, and then Fortress up, than it is to have a betty crocker recipe for a fast fortress, and then start the action.

Remember AOC...when a 14 minute Fast Castle was considered to be pretty damned good? You basically sat there going about the same old build order over and over again.

I'd just love it if we could make Colonial and a few aspects like 'map control' a bit more relevant.


But that's just me. I could be wrong.


Check out my Blog at www.lohcenter.net
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-05-06 10:24 AM EDT (US)     139 / 160       

Quote:

Cossacks with no strelet support=dead cossacks.

Okay ... and 4 hussars against 50 strelets will lose as well. Obviously you back up your cossacks with strelets, that's the whole idea! You either slow them down, or damage them, forcing them to attack the cossacks with hand attack (hardly effective, and with their hand attack and poor HP they won't really last that long), while your strelets pull up and simply pick the remainder off. 5 or so Pikes shouldn't pose an issue, retreat your cossacks, focus fire the pikes with strelets, and just continue doing what I said before. So it may take micro, *Oh No!*

Longbows without yeomen and veteran status are not OP, so if you can't deal with them in colonial I'm wondering how you are doing it in fortress.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 07-05-06 11:04 AM EDT (US)     140 / 160       
Call me crazy, but I consider a unit that nearly slaughters all of it's cavalry counters OP. Longbows do far too well against lancers, cuirs and even spahi (which some people actually consider OP themselves) to be considered balanced. Take into account game conditions and longbows can only be countered by mass artillery, which we all know shoiuldn't be the only effective way.

Yes, it's true that longbows do need to very good to keep Brits from being UP again, but I see people using this argument against nerfing longbows. I'm sorry, but brits will not suddenly be UP because a unit can't beat it's counters anymore. What would make them UP is if longbows became worse than other UU LI (cass for example) and even skirmishers. That's not what something in the region of a 0.5 penalty against melee cavalry would do.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-05-06 11:18 AM EDT (US)     141 / 160       

Quote:


I think that it takes far more skill to have a competitive, engaging war during Colonial, and then Fortress up, than it is to have a betty crocker recipe for a fast fortress, and then start the action.

For me that is only true if I'm playing Ottoman or Dutch (and to a much lesser extent, Spanish). Russia too, except I don't play them and don't plan to. The rest of the civs are utterly homogenous and boring in Colonial.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Ferdinand Gwonch
Skirmisher
posted 07-05-06 01:25 PM EDT (US)     142 / 160       

Quoted from "schildpad":

you mean make brittish op, especially in team games: Do FI, send 2 factories, estates, 3 rockets and gg

sorry for my ignorance, but what is gg?


OWN GOAL
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-05-06 01:44 PM EDT (US)     143 / 160       

Quote:

Okay ... and 4 hussars against 50 strelets will lose as well. Obviously you back up your cossacks with strelets, that's the whole idea!

You can't back up your cossacks with strelets when your strelets are not in range.

Thats the whole idea of backing up and forcing both the strelets and cossacks to run after you.

Or do you not understand that either? I can't stupefy my words any more.

Quote:

forcing them to attack the cossacks with hand attack (hardly effective, and with their hand attack and poor HP they won't really last that long)

You're going to make 20 longbows get into melee with 5 cossacks?

Bullshit.

And, you conveniently forget about the pikes. The strelets can't do crap about the pikes when they're struggling to catch up.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
LoH_Numa1
Skirmisher
posted 07-05-06 04:01 PM EDT (US)     144 / 160       
lb is all that Britain really has...and it's already bugged so that it's hard as hell to micro. (and seriously disadvantaged).

Why the hate?


Check out my Blog at www.lohcenter.net
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-05-06 04:19 PM EDT (US)     145 / 160       

Quote:

lb is all that Britain really has...and it's already bugged so that it's hard as hell to micro. (and seriously disadvantaged).

You must be kidding me.

Go play a 2100 Brit and tell me that again.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 07-05-06 07:07 PM EDT (US)     146 / 160       

Quote:

lb is all that Britain really has...and it's already bugged so that it's hard as hell to micro. (and seriously disadvantaged).

wtf?! bugged?

1.

Quote:

Go play a 2100 Brit and tell me that again.

2. it isnt bugged, they dont have to reload. so they swap instant fire for reloading

3. once you get past that pause, they start really going, and its hard to stop/beat


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
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schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 01:39 AM EDT (US)     147 / 160       

Quote:

sorry for my ignorance, but what is gg


good game, like many say in the end of a game

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

LoH_Numa1
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 09:43 AM EDT (US)     148 / 160       

Quote:

Quote:

lb is all that Britain really has...and it's already bugged so that it's hard as hell to micro. (and seriously disadvantaged).

wtf?! bugged?

1.

Quote:

Go play a 2100 Brit and tell me that again.

2. it isnt bugged, they dont have to reload. so they swap instant fire for reloading

3. once you get past that pause, they start really going, and its hard to stop/beat

Meh. I know once they start up they reload uber fast...it's just that they seem to stutter when you micro them.


Check out my Blog at www.lohcenter.net
Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 05:58 PM EDT (US)     149 / 160       
Yeah, if they're about to fire and then you select another target, that set up time seems to restart.

I wouldn't say that it's hard as hell to micro though. If don't commit to your target and keep switching it, then you'll get bit though.

Quote:

You must be kidding me.

Go play a 2100 Brit and tell me that again.

Even if it were legitimately hard, which I don't believe it is, why would the 2100 mark be a benchmark for that? That means the majority of players (which are the ones below 2100) have to just live with it? I'd be pissed if ES or any other game company only geared their games to the gamers at the very top. I can't expect they'd do much business in the future that way.


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 06:46 PM EDT (US)     150 / 160       

Quote:

Even if it were legitimately hard, which I don't believe it is, why would the 2100 mark be a benchmark for that?

Its not a benchmark.

I've played 1950 Brits who can use longbows as if there's a bug...a bug that makes them good, lol..

Quote:

That means the majority of players (which are the ones below 2100) have to just live with it? I'd be pissed if ES or any other game company only geared their games to the gamers at the very top. I can't expect they'd do much business in the future that way.

You must purposely be missing my point (because that didn't make much sense to me).

I simply said go play a 2100 Brit and say that again because 2100 Brits usually will kick you around like a little bean bag with their longbows, its just insane.

Heck, even lower rated Brit players are pretty tough to go up against, if they know what they're doing.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
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