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Topic Subject:Is it fair?
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Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 08-01-06 08:21 PM EDT (US)         
Well, now that patch 1.08 is out, I've taken my time to see its effects on the Proto File. While I was there I noticed something which probably most of you know due to MNbob's unit chart.

Abus gun did not get the "Skirmisher like-unit" bonus. Even though they are classified as Light Infantry, they didn't get 1.5 vs Light Cavalry. If that, they would do 30 Damage every shot (or 3 seconds) since they already have 0.5 vs all Cavalry... this would apply to all Light Cavalry since Abus' damage ignore armor.

But I've checked and, for my surprise, Longbowman DO have 1.5 vs Light Cavalry. I thought it was kind unfair... this unit has been claimed OP a thousand times, it does full damage to everything (17 dmg/1.5 seconds) even though it is Light Infantry. Like if that wasn't enough. They were already the best counter to all Light Cavalry, but now they totally own them.

Abus Gun: 20 damage/3 seconds
Longbowman: 51 damage/3 seconds

That means 35.7 damage to the highest armoured Light Cavalry: the Dragoon. Longbowman cost 33% less than an Abus (100 vs 150), they train 15 seconds faster and come from the Barracks. Of course, they cost 1 less Pop. Besides that, they don't have 0.5 vs all Cavalry like Abus gun! Their base damage is already higher than a Skirmisher... Although they do slighty less damage due to aim time, that is way more damage than every Light Infantry. TWICE as much as a Skirmisher (more expensive unit) to Light Cavalry.

Why do I think its wrong? Many reasons... First Longbowman already do full damage to all units, now it does way more damage also to Light Cavalry. The problem is not that they got the bonus too... but that it is way more effective in their hands than it is for any other Light Infantry. Abus Gun also did the lowest damage/pop against Light Cavalry from all Light Infantry. Technically it is also completely wrong, since this was supposed to affect all Light Infantry, there is no technical reason that explain why the Abus Gun shouldn't get it.

And don't come saying that "OMFG Ottos didn't get a boost cuz they pwn in 1.08!!" because all civilizations should be able to counter all units effectivelly. Its not like if I don't rush my enemy should get the chance to abuse of a unit... Kind of odd that War Wagons + Caracole (18 Range) is OP only against only one civ, uh?

Notice that this is not a complain because I got owned in a game or something, because I didn't. And usually I can handle with Light Cavalry, but this is tottaly based on units stats and their abilities to counter.

So my question is: Is it fair that Longbowmen get 1.5 vs Light Cavalry but Abus don't? Discuss


ESO - Walker

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[This message has been edited by Just a player (edited 08-01-2006 @ 08:22 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Syncope
Skirmisher
posted 08-01-06 08:27 PM EDT (US)     1 / 64       
I'm not an Otto expert by any measure, in fact, I hardly ever play them. But I have been told and I have also abused the fact that Otto players have a very tough time countering cavalry with sub-par counters. I would also have much rather seen Abus receive the bonus as opposed to longbows but we will have to experiment and see how the patch plays out.
ddemers
Skirmisher
posted 08-01-06 08:53 PM EDT (US)     2 / 64       
Jans seem to cost effectivly counter Cav...

[EEX] Nullpointer
Canadian Gamer
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-01-06 08:54 PM EDT (US)     3 / 64       
you noob!! otto op!!!111!!

=flamed=

as per Walker's request.

as for the question posed.

no longbows didnt need that boost.

nor does abus tho.

imo only gunpowder skirm type units should have had this boost anyway.

Ossian
Skirmisher
posted 08-01-06 08:56 PM EDT (US)     4 / 64       
Brits sorta sucked in 1v1, and LC bonus for lbows isn't that good, no one really made LC to counter Lbow anyways

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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-01-06 09:25 PM EDT (US)     5 / 64       
its not about LC counter lonngbow, its about longbow counters all that counters hussar - that is all heavy infantry and all light cavalry.

With the hussar boost, who will beat artillery and most other melee cavalry cost effectively, how do you beat longbow + hussar combo?

KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 08-01-06 09:32 PM EDT (US)     6 / 64       
or cuir + skirm

or lancer + skirm

or skirm + hussar

or hussar + cassadore

or cossack + strelet

or skirm + uhlan

see why we need so many patches?


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ZinkOxide
Skirmisher
posted 08-01-06 09:35 PM EDT (US)     7 / 64       
Hahaha, Lbows will be the next WW.

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Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 08-01-06 09:35 PM EDT (US)     8 / 64       

Quote:

Abus gun did not get the "Skirmisher like-unit" bonus. Even though they are classified as Light Infantry, they didn't get 1.5 vs Light Cavalry.

As I said they wouldn't. Nor should they. However, lbows getting the boost wasn't really necessary and they probably shouldn't have gotten it either.


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Ekanta
Skirmisher
posted 08-01-06 09:56 PM EDT (US)     9 / 64       

Quote:

how do you beat longbow + hussar combo


By going only hussars.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-01-06 09:59 PM EDT (US)     10 / 64       

Quote:

By going only hussars.

the problem for that is longbows do very well against hussars too, and british can make dragoon to counter hussars,

yet no one else has anythign close to the power of longbow in beating dragoons.

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 08-01-06 11:48 PM EDT (US)     11 / 64       
For everyone that is going "OMGZERZ LI COUNTER LC WHICH WHEN HC BACKED BY LI CANT BE DEFEATED"

Well heres some news, every civ has at least hussars, if not a better HC, and skirms/abus or cass. So really, it's not like brits are the only one with that combo.


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mproviz
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 00:26 AM EDT (US)     12 / 64       
hmm... so what are hussars good for now?
parallax7d
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 00:30 AM EDT (US)     13 / 64       
With British spending less wood on houses, thus getting more free settlers earlier..meaning even more produced wood...meaning even more longbows on the field. Plus less wood for barracks and stables, meaning even more wood for longbows? Plus one saved card you could now use on 700 wood. Plus stronger Hussars?

Britian is going to be OP in colonial.

I would suggest removing the longbow's new LC damage mod. The old hordes of longbows were bad enough, now they will be worse, and counters are less effective on top of it!

LoH_Numa1
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 00:49 AM EDT (US)     14 / 64       
Meh.

I think they're fine right now.


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poita
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 01:03 AM EDT (US)     15 / 64       

Quote:

there is no technical reason that explain why the Abus Gun shouldn't get it.

Probably because they didn't want abus to counter light infantry, heavy infantry, light cavalary and artillery.

Abus are still quite OP.

Longbows should have got it but they should've been nerfed some other way I think.


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Braveheart_LDS
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 02:52 AM EDT (US)     16 / 64       
omg longbows = fine.
deal with it.

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poita
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 05:20 AM EDT (US)     17 / 64       

Quote:

omg longbows = fine.
deal with it.

Umm no. Longbows are the most OP unit in the game right now. I don't know if brits are OP but longbows definitely are. I'll prove it with a simple comparison to all the other light infantry if you want but it's easier just to take my word for it.


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Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 05:24 AM EDT (US)     18 / 64       
Well, ofc lbows are a little too good in 1.08(i played 2 games vs brits yesterday) but brits cant spam lbows very early. If you are fast and use xbows/pikes you can cripple his eco/kill his vills/destroy his rax b4 the lbows reach a critical mass.

With some proper micro xbows do pretty well vs lbows because lbows have a long reload animation and thatfor cant really hit and run well.

So simply run after the lbows with your xbows and shoot them from time to time while your pikes take out the british rax.

poita
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 05:30 AM EDT (US)     19 / 64       
I find that as long as the longbows aren't massed that melee cav are incredibly effective against them. Put the longbows in melee and they don't stand a chance. Especially with extra light inf firing at them. You just have to make sure that you have a decent number of heavy cav otherwise they die just trying to get near the LBs.

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zrtf91
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 06:39 AM EDT (US)     20 / 64       

Quoted from Just a player:

Abus gun did not get the "Skirmisher like-unit" bonus. Even though they are classified as Light Infantry


I think that the expectation here was based on the argument that Abus Guns and Grenadiers are Infantry, not Artillery.

I don't know that ES has documented their proto.xml and how much is just surmised but Abus Guns and Grenadiers do Siege damage as their default ranged damage and are trained at the Artillery Foundry. That should suggest that they are indeed artillery but they are countered by cavalry and falconets not culverins so they are also infantry.

With all due respect to MNBob and, to a certain extent, Ender - both of whom are more authoritative on this game than I - while I think it's correct to say that Abus Guns and Grenadiers are Infantry, I think it's wrong to say that they are not Artillery. They are, to use an analogy, like magpies; they are neither crows (black birds) nor doves (white birds) but they share characteristics of both.

I therefore find it correct that Abus and Grens do not benefit from the 1.5X bonus against cavalry regardless of their strength versus longbows - which I think was the main thrust of your post.


LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 08:52 AM EDT (US)     21 / 64       
Whats wrong with longbows+hussars?

Camp dragoons behind falcs, so that the hussars can never get to the falcs. Since upgraded longbows only have the same range as falcs, they can't shoot the falcs without being shot at themselves.

So, falcs+dragoons should work (because the dragoons stay behind the falcs, they can't be fired on without having the longbows decimated by the falcs. There's also no possible way for the hussars to hit the falcs without being pelted from behind by dragoons)


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unjugon
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 09:02 AM EDT (US)     22 / 64       

Quote:

Whats wrong with longbows+hussars?

Camp dragoons behind falcs, so that the hussars can never get to the falcs. Since upgraded longbows only have the same range as falcs, they can't shoot the falcs without being shot at themselves.

So, falcs+dragoons should work (because the dragoons stay behind the falcs, they can't be fired on without having the longbows decimated by the falcs. There's also no possible way for the hussars to hit the falcs without being pelted from behind by dragoons)


Longbows don´t cost gold. Now take a look at your counter.
Its the whole problem with longbows. You might counter them well in a battle or 2, but they´ll overpower you eventually.

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poita
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 09:04 AM EDT (US)     23 / 64       

Quote:

Camp dragoons behind falcs, so that the hussars can never get to the falcs. Since upgraded longbows only have the same range as falcs, they can't shoot the falcs without being shot at themselves.

I'd actually be mored scared of just massed longbows on their own. LBs can very effectively stand up to falconets once massed.

It only takes a non-vet LB 47 shots to kill a falconet. So if you have 20 of them then that's 3-4.5 seconds to kill a falc. With veteran and yeomen upgrades it only gets worse. Considering falcs are supposed to destroy LI, that's pretty bad.


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Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 09:32 AM EDT (US)     24 / 64       
Like I said earlier: 8 longbows do more damage to artillery than a culverin. Pretty stupid, really.
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 09:49 AM EDT (US)     25 / 64       

Quote:

Longbows don´t cost gold. Now take a look at your counter.
Its the whole problem with longbows. You might counter them well in a battle or 2, but they´ll overpower you eventually.

So?

You're telling me you're not going to have coin? What? If the game goes into Industrial, you have HC. Use your coin on culvs for his rockets.

I have never had to make a plantation in fortress. Ever. Only in Industrial, and by that time, your economy can support it (especially if you've played smart. On 90% of maps you have at least 2 trade posts, fishing ships, or both.)

On maps like Patagonia and Great Lakes, you can easily get 3 TPs, if not more. On Patagonia, you can take water too.



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