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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Is it fair?
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Topic Subject:Is it fair?
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Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 08-01-06 08:21 PM EDT (US)         
Well, now that patch 1.08 is out, I've taken my time to see its effects on the Proto File. While I was there I noticed something which probably most of you know due to MNbob's unit chart.

Abus gun did not get the "Skirmisher like-unit" bonus. Even though they are classified as Light Infantry, they didn't get 1.5 vs Light Cavalry. If that, they would do 30 Damage every shot (or 3 seconds) since they already have 0.5 vs all Cavalry... this would apply to all Light Cavalry since Abus' damage ignore armor.

But I've checked and, for my surprise, Longbowman DO have 1.5 vs Light Cavalry. I thought it was kind unfair... this unit has been claimed OP a thousand times, it does full damage to everything (17 dmg/1.5 seconds) even though it is Light Infantry. Like if that wasn't enough. They were already the best counter to all Light Cavalry, but now they totally own them.

Abus Gun: 20 damage/3 seconds
Longbowman: 51 damage/3 seconds

That means 35.7 damage to the highest armoured Light Cavalry: the Dragoon. Longbowman cost 33% less than an Abus (100 vs 150), they train 15 seconds faster and come from the Barracks. Of course, they cost 1 less Pop. Besides that, they don't have 0.5 vs all Cavalry like Abus gun! Their base damage is already higher than a Skirmisher... Although they do slighty less damage due to aim time, that is way more damage than every Light Infantry. TWICE as much as a Skirmisher (more expensive unit) to Light Cavalry.

Why do I think its wrong? Many reasons... First Longbowman already do full damage to all units, now it does way more damage also to Light Cavalry. The problem is not that they got the bonus too... but that it is way more effective in their hands than it is for any other Light Infantry. Abus Gun also did the lowest damage/pop against Light Cavalry from all Light Infantry. Technically it is also completely wrong, since this was supposed to affect all Light Infantry, there is no technical reason that explain why the Abus Gun shouldn't get it.

And don't come saying that "OMFG Ottos didn't get a boost cuz they pwn in 1.08!!" because all civilizations should be able to counter all units effectivelly. Its not like if I don't rush my enemy should get the chance to abuse of a unit... Kind of odd that War Wagons + Caracole (18 Range) is OP only against only one civ, uh?

Notice that this is not a complain because I got owned in a game or something, because I didn't. And usually I can handle with Light Cavalry, but this is tottaly based on units stats and their abilities to counter.

So my question is: Is it fair that Longbowmen get 1.5 vs Light Cavalry but Abus don't? Discuss


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.

[This message has been edited by Just a player (edited 08-01-2006 @ 08:22 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 09:54 AM EDT (US)     26 / 64       

Quote:

Longbows don´t cost gold. Now take a look at your counter.
Its the whole problem with longbows. You might counter them well in a battle or 2, but they´ll overpower you eventually.

I'd personally rather have lbows cost gold over wood actually, since I'm always low on wood from house booming and walling in. Wood gathers the slowest.

And 8 longbows does kill a culv and falc quickly, but what if you have hussars charging at your longbows with the HC or falcs for support? Your rockets will become useless basically as will your culvs unless you want to lose them to hussars.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
brandnizzle
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 11:21 AM EDT (US)     27 / 64       
wood is the great part about l bows. you dont need map cotnrol for wood, and brits are a booming civ.

you dont need 4 plantations on wood.

brits can just spam them like CRAZY.

poita
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 11:52 AM EDT (US)     28 / 64       

Quote:

but what if you have hussars charging at your longbows with the HC or falcs for support?

Umm, you lose, like your supposed to. If LBs didnt lose to both their counters combined then I'd be very scared. I don't see the point you're trying to make.

I also agree that wood is definitely a huge benefit for longbows. It means you can just continuously pump them out without even thinking about map control and don't need to worry about plantations etc.


- - ESO Name: poita - -
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LoH_Numa1
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 11:57 AM EDT (US)     29 / 64       
It can still be a challenge to find 'safe wood' on many maps.

Don't want a brit to spam pike+lbows...deny him wood.


Check out my Blog at www.lohcenter.net
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 11:58 AM EDT (US)     30 / 64       
No, it isn't fair at all. But is not surprising either.

As I said when we talked about this on ESO, Walker, ES is deathly afraid of boosting Ottomans in any way. This too is why Grenadiers aren't improved (but are infact nerfed) in 1.08.

So the Spahi FF is stil pretty much pointless against everyone but Russians.


P.S.
People who think Jans counter Dragoons well enough are deluding themselves. Janissaries do even worse than Muskets. You need alot of Janissaries, which makes you more vulnerable to their counters (think Skirmishers with CIR), because you won't have enough resources for supporting forces.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 11:59 AM EDT (US)     31 / 64       

Quote:

And 8 longbows does kill a culv and falc quickly, but what if you have hussars charging at your longbows with the HC or falcs for support? Your rockets will become useless basically as will your culvs unless you want to lose them to hussars.

You have your longbows move on top of the rockets and kill the hussars, and the rockets firing at the HC/falcs. Rockets > HC before HC > longbow, and longbow > hussar.

Oh, and he'll also have a better eco then you, so it's not even equal costs - it's tilted in favour of the brits in that respect too.

Chimp With A Gun
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 12:10 PM EDT (US)     32 / 64       
O man yesterday i was playing agest a dutch guy. he had all his pop on Guard Ruyter(i checked after game, but figered as much anyways) but all i had were 50 guard longbows w/ armor upgrade. and i riped them apart the kid was so pissed he accused me of cheating and that i was a noob for using yomen card. This guy oveously never been british. but it was so funny. he made skirms i just made 4 cannons and 30 more longbows i had about 50 longbows total and made 15 imp hussars. he was so pissed. the guy was an idiot though only made culverns when i had rockets(mass as in my whole pop).

It was fun i won. that happens a lot.


Chimp with a gun
AKA
Desert fox
WAR DOESN'T DETERMINE WHO'S RIGHT,
ONLY WHO'S LEFT
Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 12:23 PM EDT (US)     33 / 64       

Quote:

wood is the great part about l bows. you dont need map cotnrol for wood

Huh? Some maps, ok. But Great Plains? Sonora? Pampas? Bayou? So you start with a stand of wood near you but pretty soon you have to go somewhere else to keep gathering.

Wood is not the great part about lbows. Brits are wood heavy compared to other civs anyway so having their UU cost 40 wood apiece certainly isn't a benefit since wood gathers the slowest.


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 12:31 PM EDT (US)     34 / 64       
Wood is the most abundant resource on the map, even bayou and great plains. It needs to be, the way brits mass longbows. If they cost 40 coin instead, then the brit would only be able to make 50 longbows per mine, in a patch of trees there are potentially hundreds. And also, the fact that they cost wood means the brit can manor boom and build longbows at the same time easily. Most of the time a unit costing wood is a bad thing, but in the case of the british it is a plus.
Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 08-02-06 12:48 PM EDT (US)     35 / 64       
Omg... so many replies

Anyway, I won't quote everyone, but I'll make my points. First, as I said, the problem isn't how you counter Longbowman or how you counter Dragoons. It isn't if Abus are too good or massed Longbowman > all. The problem is that Longbowman already did way more damage to Light Cavalry than everyone... if Skirmishers had the 1.5 bonus but Longbowman didn't they would still do more damage than Skirmishers, got it?

Abus is the worst Light Infantry to use against all Light Cavalry (even Dragoons) per pop. Though cost wise they were a little better than Skirmishers (against Dragoons only - they were worse than Skirmishers against all others), now they are much worse. My point is that if Longbowman got it, Abus should have got it first. Heck! Against any Light Cavalry besides Dragoons, 1 Longbowman would perform better than 1 Abus!

As I said, its not a counter problem. But boosting Longbowman before Abus against Light Cavalry is like if you had boosted Dragoons before boosting Ruyters... oh wait, ES did that.


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.

[This message has been edited by Just a player (edited 08-02-2006 @ 12:52 PM).]

Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 12:58 PM EDT (US)     36 / 64       

Quote:

Wood is the most abundant resource on the map, even bayou and great plains.

Just because there is a large quantity of it per map doesn't mean its secure. Obviously that's not the case in all maps. Maps like Carolinas and New England have large quantities very close to your TC at the start, but on others you have to go a significant distance from your TC early and this is when the Brit is weakest.

Furthermore, lbows and manors both costing wood, the slowest gathering resource, is not an advantage. It requires that you have fewer vils on other resources and continuously balancing economic and military growth off one resource. If that resource is raided heavily you become very vulnerable very fast.

Now, all that said, I haven't had a chance to play 1.08 yet, so it is probably easier with cheaper manors and rax. They can probably get rolling earlier on and defend themselves better. Also, is it fair that lbows got the multiplier vs ranged cav and abus didn't? No. But that doesn't mean I think abus should have gotten the bonus, just that lbows shouldn't have gotten it. There was a thread about this a couple months ago saying that lbows do too well vs melee acv, which they do (or at least did. not sure now with hussar boost...).

The bonus was supposed to be for archers and skirmishers, which it is (and before you go saying that abus are skirmishers, that may technically true but note that the only 2 LI that didn't get the bonus - abus and grens - are the only 2 LI that do siege). They should have looked closely at whether lbows needed that bonus and maybe they did. The patch has only been out for a day and they had been testing it for a while. It's still pretty early to decide if lbows got too much of an advantage from the boost. Obviously new strats are going to have to be created for this patch and it takes longer than a day to create effective ones.


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 08-02-06 01:11 PM EDT (US)     37 / 64       

Quote:

(and before you go saying that abus are skirmishers, that may technically true but note that the only 2 LI that didn't get the bonus - abus and grens - are the only 2 LI that do siege).

Just to point: Grenadiers are Heavy Infantry.


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 01:14 PM EDT (US)     38 / 64       

Quote:

ust because there is a large quantity of it per map doesn't mean its secure. Obviously that's not the case in all maps. Maps like Carolinas and New England have large quantities very close to your TC at the start, but on others you have to go a significant distance from your TC early and this is when the Brit is weakest.

I don't see your point... no wood isn't always secure, but it sure as hell would be a lot less secure if you had to mine gold, seeing as you start with 2000 next to your TC, and a similar amount of wood. Once that gold mine runs out you have to go further than you would for a big patch trees, and get less resources from it.

Quote:

Furthermore, lbows and manors both costing wood, the slowest gathering resource, is not an advantage. It requires that you have fewer vils on other resources and continuously balancing economic and military growth off one resource.

No, it's much easier when everything is one resource. When you run out of manors you don't have to move all your vills around on to different resources, you can just carry on as normal. The less types of resources you have to gather, the easier it is to manage your economy. Think about it.

Quote:

If that resource is raided heavily you become very vulnerable very fast.

If you're raided heavily and do nothing about it then you're vulnerable regardless of anything.

Quote:

The bonus was supposed to be for archers and skirmishers, which it is (and before you go saying that abus are skirmishers, that may technically true but note that the only 2 LI that didn't get the bonus - abus and grens - are the only 2 LI that do siege).

That's flawed logic, you can't make a connection like that with zero evidence. Abus/grenadiers didn't get the bonus because ES are scared that the ottomans will be OP - because they were before. That's why they got no other direct boosts.

Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 01:53 PM EDT (US)     39 / 64       

Quote:

No, it's much easier when everything is one resource. When you run out of manors you don't have to move all your vills around on to different resources, you can just carry on as normal. The less types of resources you have to gather, the easier it is to manage your economy. Think about it.

Ok, I probably worded that wrong. It is easier to gather one resource. But there's that saying: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket."

Quote:

If you're raided heavily and do nothing about it then you're vulnerable regardless of anything.

I'm just saying, sometimes you have to go pretty far for wood early on and if you start getting raided early on it can be hard to get defenses to protect yourself. Certainly it's not this way most of the time.

Quote:

Just to point: Grenadiers are Heavy Infantry.

Good call. My bad.

Quote:

That's flawed logic, you can't make a connection like that with zero evidence.

How is it flawed logic to point out that the only LI unit that didn't get the bonus is the one that does siege damage? I'm not sure what evidence you'd like. You can read the patch release notes if you'd like and then compare it to a unit chart. I suggest this one. You'll find the only archer or skirmisher (LI) that didn't get the bonus is the abus and that is also the only LI that does siege damage.

So let's look at the abus, it does siege damage. It effectively counters heavy infantry, which it is supposed to. It effectively counters light infantry because the fact that it does siege damage negates the ranged resistance of light infantry. It effectivley counters artillery because of the amount of damage it does and the number of them you can get compared to an actual artillery piece.

That leaves 2 things it is poor against: heavy and light cavalry. Had it gotten the bonus against ranged cavalry the only thing left to counter abus would be melee cav and it would effectively counter every other class of unit in the game.

I'm not sure how anyone could argue that abus needed to counter ranged cavalry. They counter nearly everything else at least decently. Arguing that they should get it because lbows got makes no sense. Lbows shouldn't have gotten the bonus IMO, since they already do pretty well against cavalry when they are massed. So saying that another unit should be boosted to match a unit which some people already consider OP isn't the best idea. I'd rather see lbows not ge the bonus than abus getting a bonus against another unit.


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 02:16 PM EDT (US)     40 / 64       

Quote:

Ok, I probably worded that wrong. It is easier to gather one resource. But there's that saying: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket."

Not sure if this that quote is relevant to having all vills on one resource. I believe that would only be true if there were some way to stop the gathering of wood completely, but there isn't, you'll 90% of the time have easy access to wood, and it's always the most easy resource to get.

Quote:

I'm just saying, sometimes you have to go pretty far for wood early on and if you start getting raided early on it can be hard to get defenses to protect yourself. Certainly it's not this way most of the time.

No, it's not always hard but most of the time it is. Compare wood to gold, not wood to a hypothetical "perfect" resource, which is what you're doing, by pointing out the imperfections of gathering wood. We all know it's not unraidable and we all know it's not unextuingishable, but it's the best there is.

Quote:

How is it flawed logic to point out that the only LI unit that didn't get the bonus is the one that does siege damage?

It's not, but it is flawed logic to say that abus didn't get the bonus because they do siege damage, just because they do and they did not. That's how I interpreted your post.

Quote:

It effectivley counters artillery because of the amount of damage it does and the number of them you can get compared to an actual artillery piece.

Disagree 100%, abus guns lose to artillery on a cost basis, and lose even worse when the numbers get larger. Though I do agree they do too much damage to artillery, they can hardly be called an effective counter, I'm sure any other ottoman players here will agree with me. Abus guns get beaten by heavy cavalry and artillery just like any other light infantry should.

Quote:

I'm not sure how anyone could argue that abus needed to counter ranged cavalry. They counter nearly everything else at least decently. Arguing that they should get it because lbows got makes no sense.

Arguing that longbows should not get it because abus don't is the same thing.

Depends on how you look at it. Two decent UU LIs - one gets the bonus and one doesn't, you can either argue that longbows shouldn't get the bonus, or that abus guns should. Personally I think they should, ranged cavalry is impossible to counter effectively with ottoman units, they should get at least one unit which makes LC scared to take fire from it. At the moment, every other civ has that unit, ottomans don't.

N_E_Patriots
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 02:18 PM EDT (US)     41 / 64       
I think the calvary arches are just useless, giving abus guns 1.5x calvary would be kinda lame, i would wrather just have 1 op unit than 2. I think es should take away hte longbows bonus. but thats just my opinion. At least abus are more expensive and take more up more pop.

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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 02:30 PM EDT (US)     42 / 64       

Quoted from mist:

Camp dragoons behind falcs, so that the hussars can never get to the falcs. Since upgraded longbows only have the same range as falcs, they can't shoot the falcs without being shot at themselves.

problem is, fals are not as effecient in killing stagger mode longbows as longbows are in killing dragoons and dragoons are not as effecient in killing hussars as hussars are in killing falcs.

500 res worth of vet longbow kills 1 dragoons in time 1 falc fires 1 shot, killing 1 longbow.

similarly 1 dragoon cant kill 1 vet hussar in time that hussar kills 1 falc. in fact 1 vet hussar may even kill 1 falc even if there are 2 dragoons shotting at it.

not to meantion vet dragoons lose to vet hussars in melee mode too.

Quoted from adam:

Depends on how you look at it. Two decent UU LIs - one gets the bonus and one doesn't, you can either argue that longbows shouldn't get the bonus, or that abus guns should. Personally I think they should, ranged cavalry is impossible to counter effectively with ottoman units, they should get at least one unit which makes LC scared to take fire from it. At the moment, every other civ has that unit, ottomans don't.

I for one, would say otto doesnt need it.

The only reason anyone makes LC against ottoman is spahi, (and imo spahi is quite OP) yet abus does just about everythign spahi does - killing falc and LI - you have mamelukes for raiding. once spahis gone, ottoman should do OK with vet.abus.

And abus'es LC damage is still good, vet skirm only does 19~ish dmg to dragoons, vet abus does 24 dmg.

However imo longbow should not have got this boost either, the whole point of longbow was a unit that doesnt need any bonus to do good damage against everything due to base damage advantage. thsi has just made them a bit broken, as if 20 autofire range wasnt enough.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 08-02-2006 @ 02:45 PM).]

Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 02:34 PM EDT (US)     43 / 64       

Quote:

Disagree 100%, abus guns lose to artillery on a cost basis, and lose even worse when the numbers get larger. Though I do agree they do too much damage to artillery, they can hardly be called an effective counter

They're more effective than other LI though. Though I haven't really played as Ottomans and never played as them on ESO, from my experience playing against Ottos, abus do considerably better against my artillery than my LI does against theirs. Not that I go around trying to kil artillery with LI anyway...

Quoted from Adam42:

Arguing that longbows should not get it because abus don't is the same thing.

I agree, which is why I said:

Quoted from Real2002:

Lbows shouldn't have gotten the bonus IMO, since they already do pretty well against cavalry when they are massed.

Quote:

Depends on how you look at it. Two decent UU LIs - one gets the bonus and one doesn't, you can either argue that longbows shouldn't get the bonus, or that abus guns should. Personally I think they should, ranged cavalry is impossible to counter effectively with ottoman units, they should get at least one unit which makes LC scared to take fire from it. At the moment, every other civ has that unit, ottomans don't.

But looking at it from another point of view, Ottos are in the best position to use ranged cavalry. Abus can take out both light and heavy infantry, whereas your opponent cannot effectively take out your abus with LI. If you hold back your ranged cav behind your abus and attack his LI, your LC can get any melee cav that tries to go after your abus.

To be honest though, I would have rather had HI get the bonus.


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

[This message has been edited by Real2002 (edited 08-02-2006 @ 02:41 PM).]

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 03:08 PM EDT (US)     44 / 64       

Quote:

They're more effective than other LI though. Though I haven't really played as Ottomans and never played as them on ESO, from my experience playing against Ottos, abus do considerably better against my artillery than my LI does against theirs. Not that I go around trying to kil artillery with LI anyway...

They are more effective than most other LI I agree with that, they are too powerful against arty as are longbows. I was only in disagreement when you said abus effectively counter artillery, which is not true.

Quote:

But looking at it from another point of view, Ottos are in the best position to use ranged cavalry. Abus can take out both light and heavy infantry, whereas your opponent cannot effectively take out your abus with LI. If you hold back your ranged cav behind your abus and attack his LI, your LC can get any melee cav that tries to go after your abus.

Cav archers? Cavalry could charge in, kill 20 abus guns, make a cup of coffee then kill half your settlers before cav archers do anything.

Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 03:11 PM EDT (US)     45 / 64       

Quote:

They are more effective than most other LI I agree with that, they are too powerful against arty as are longbows. I was only in disagreement when you said abus effectively counter artillery, which is not true.

Alright, so not effectively, but better than most other LI. Agreed.

Quote:

Cav archers? Cavalry could charge in, kill 20 abus guns, make a cup of coffee then kill half your settlers before cav archers do anything.

Haha... probably true. If they had decent ranged cav, they'd be in the best postion to use it...


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 03:28 PM EDT (US)     46 / 64       
Are people here retarded?

Quote:

Lbows shouldn't have gotten the bonus IMO, since they already do pretty well against cavalry when they are massed.

Longbows DO NOT GET A MULTIPLIER AGAINST CAV, ONLY RANGED CAV.

But you'd have to be awfully stupid to send LC into longbows anyway ...

And not to pick on you, but this is also for the other one or ... ten players that resign on QS because longbows are OP and counter everything.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 03:51 PM EDT (US)     47 / 64       

Quoted from Brtnboarder495:

Are people here retarded?

Still, this nonsense from you. You notice how Adam42 and I were having an actual conversation without throwing crap like that around? Come on... I know you should be able to figure it out.

You said:

Quoted from Brtnboarder495:

Longbows DO NOT GET A MULTIPLIER AGAINST CAV, ONLY RANGED CAV.

That's after you quoted me as saying:

Quoted from Real2002:

Lbows shouldn't have gotten the bonus IMO, since they already do pretty well against cavalry when they are massed.

Nowhere in that quote did I say that lbows get a multiplier against all cav. I said they do well against all cav when massed. Why did I say that? Because of a thread from June where in post 51 Ender_Ward gives us the damage rate of LI units. The longbow's damage rate is very high and can therefore handle cavalry well overall. This is why, in my opinion, they did not need a multiplier against ranged cavalry.

Click here for that thread


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 04:07 PM EDT (US)     48 / 64       
Okay, so how in the world would giving them the 1.5x bonus against LC even affect their "OPness" against HC?

And AIM is for private conversations, this is a public forum, not just for two people.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_

[This message has been edited by Brtnboarder495 (edited 08-02-2006 @ 04:08 PM).]

xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 08-02-06 04:08 PM EDT (US)     49 / 64       
And I was rather enjoying this very civil and model discussion about a certain aspect of gameplay. It was a nice break from all the flame/quote wars. Oh well...
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 04:16 PM EDT (US)     50 / 64       
@brtn, you know hc got nerved? So that multiplier doesnt help them, the patch does help them a lot

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