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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » 5 Uhlan Shipment
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Topic Subject:5 Uhlan Shipment
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xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 09-30-06 10:08 PM EDT (US)         
Woot, my first controversial topic!

Anyways, does anyone else think that this card should be boosted? I mean, compared with germany's other shipments it doesnt really seem so great. I think it should be 6 Uhlans personally. I mean, Russians get 5 cossacks, why do germans only get 5 Uhlans?

Opinions?

AuthorReplies:
TarsTarkas
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 10:10 PM EDT (US)     1 / 35       
I think its supposed to be in comparison to the 3 hussar card, but I totally agree with you matt. The germans just need a boost in general, and that card isnt that great.

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Cancer of the Head
Skirmisher
(id: say1988)
posted 09-30-06 10:12 PM EDT (US)     2 / 35       
One Uhlan is of comparable value (cost) to one hussar. Plus the two for it being a colonial shipment. Cossacks are ~1/2 of hussars, so they get more.
SlavE_2_FreedoM
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 10:15 PM EDT (US)     3 / 35       
5 Uhlans is nasty to deal with. Its comparable to 3 hussars.
brandnizzle
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 10:55 PM EDT (US)     4 / 35       
cossack=150 resources

uhlan=150 resources

(shipments dont count VS, jsut resources)

5 cossacks vs. 5 uhlans...wtf.

TarsTarkas
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 11:07 PM EDT (US)     5 / 35       
So in keeping with the resources per shipment and the German bonus it should be 7 Uhlans?

That seems a little much (especially since I dont play Germany )


" Studies have shown that people who say "Gameplay>Realism" are less likely to find girlfriends or lead a successful, rational life in the real world.

To see these studies for yourself, please click here."

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SlavE_2_FreedoM
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 11:10 PM EDT (US)     6 / 35       
I guess keeping with the German bonus maybe it should be 6 or 7, but it would still suck to deal with. In terms of resources, 4 Uhlan = 3 Hussar, but Germany's shipments are slower but better, so 5 Uhlan's is reasonable compared to 3 hussars. But they dont really get a +2 Uhlan bonus with this shipment, maybe it should be 5 + 2.
MightyFireball
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 11:24 PM EDT (US)     7 / 35       
The only problem with this is that a 7 ulhan raiding force would be fairly overpowered in early colonial. I agree that it makes sense balance-wise, but it might not work in-game. If I could be sure that it did, I would be all for it. Germans definately need some kind of a boost.

Sorry if I seem to be changing opinions on you guys.


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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 00:10 AM EDT (US)     8 / 35       
there is nothing wrong with that card.

german is the only civ that has 4 colonial troop shipments: 9 xbow, 5 uhlan, 3 dopp, 4 landsk. if you think this one is UP, dont use it, use the other 3.

drahnier
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 01:55 AM EDT (US)     9 / 35       
Isn't the popular opinion that the 3 doppel card is useless, much like doppels are in general?
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 02:13 AM EDT (US)     10 / 35       
far from useless.

3 dopps do monsterous cavalry damage, do as much siege as 6 pikes.

what some experts do is ship 3 and make about 5, 8 dopps in take down TP and forward base very fast.

unlike 20 pikes(same res), they do very well against most light infantry(apart from strelets) and most heavy infantry too(apart from muskts).

there are 4 1.09 games by ourk posted in agesanc, you can see how he does this, in one game he used about 15 dopps to completely destroy 30 longbows. that game was patagonia i think.

this is not even counting the 2 uhlans come with it.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 10-01-2006 @ 02:19 AM).]

Ranger General
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 10:52 AM EDT (US)     11 / 35       

Quote:

there are 4 1.09 games by ourk posted in agesanc, you can see how he does this, in one game he used about 15 dopps to completely destroy 30 longbows. that game was patagonia i think.

That brit is a little bit retard, Doppel+Uhlan counters Hussar +LB(or pure LB) due to the fact that LB can't Hit and Run.

30 Muskets murder Doppels fast(espically in Scatter mode/half melee),half range)!


Ulti's word of wisdom :

since the start of aoe3, every unit that can move has been a direct counter to grenadiers, even villagers(since they have bonuses against siege troops)

[This message has been edited by Ranger General (edited 10-01-2006 @ 10:53 AM).]

tesloid
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 10:57 AM EDT (US)     12 / 35       
This is kind of funny... you get free Uhlans with every other card, but are complaining that the Uhlan card is a bit light on Uhlans.
somme
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 12:29 PM EDT (US)     13 / 35       
5 uhlans is not a bad card. 5 uhlans > 5 cossacks.

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Voltiguer
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 12:58 PM EDT (US)     14 / 35       
1 hussar is 200 resources, 1 Uhlan is 150 resources.

So 3 Hussars= 600 resources Which would be 4 Uhlans.

But since Germany is supposed to get 2 extra uhlans per shipment in Colonial, they should get 6, not 5 Uhlans.

And yes, 5 uhlans are better than 5 cossacks but isnt it Germany's bonus to get extra Uhlans?

5 Cossacks is like a normal card but resource wise it costs the same as 5 Uhlans.

However, Germany is supposed to get better shipments.

So this card needs a boost.

And about the other opinions:

@Ulti: Yes, Germany gets 4 military shipments but 4 landsknecht for 400 gold are just useless (unless you try to be a smarty pants and doppel rush a Spanish which will NEVER work vs any decent player), the 5 Uhlans card is worse than it should be, 9 xbows is nice, I agree, but 3 dopps is just a waste of a card.

9 xbows alone, or 5 cossacks/13 strels/5 uhlans or w/e alone can do serious damage.

3 dopps just get SlAuGtHeReD.

Watch some few musks focus fire your 3 pathetic dopps and type in GG.

I havent played roughly 400 rated and unrated German games to not know that dopps suck early game.

If your opponents is a tard and goes mass hussars 3 dopps are nice, but who would go for hussars if you can make musks which kill all German units in Colonial?
(try to kill of a good Russian musk rush with xbows in Colonial... its nearly impossible.)

I once faught a Russian on Carolina and massed xbows vs his musk rush.

I even had 2 TPs and could hold him off for some time.

But since he kept coming into my base I had to make more and more xbows and couldnt go fortress or stop his growing waterboom.

When he pulled back for some time and attacked my TP I counterattacked but after my ~15 pikes got focus fired by strels/musks, a huge mass of cossacs came and killed ALL of my xbows which couldnt do shit.

Hell why dont Germans get ****ing muskets!!!!

Then it was GG.

I had made like 15 pikes+100 xbowsn and 20 uhlans vs ~125 musks+~50 strels+~20 cossacks and I lost.(not to mention that he had more vills, a boat boom AND map control)

I did everything I could, raided, microed etc.

But he still outspammed me and there was nothing I could do.

How tf am I supposed to counter a Russian musk rush in Colonial as Germans????

*sigh*


This was just a short discription of one of the games which showed me how weak Germans are..

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 01:17 PM EDT (US)     15 / 35       

Quote:

That brit is a little bit retard, Doppel+Uhlan counters Hussar +LB(or pure LB) due to the fact that LB can't Hit and Run.

thats what everyone would say when they see british lose, but if he wins, people will just say he is another longbow massing lamer.

Quote:

@Ulti: Yes, Germany gets 4 military shipments but 4 landsknecht for 400 gold are just useless (unless you try to be a smarty pants and doppel rush a Spanish which will NEVER work vs any decent player), the 5 Uhlans card is worse than it should be, 9 xbows is nice, I agree, but 3 dopps is just a waste of a card.

i am not sure what has changed about 4 landsk, but back in 1.05 every german expert had that card and many used it.

3 dopp is no worse than 6 rods or 8 xbows, only slightly worse than 8 pikes.

5 uhlans is better than 4 cossacks, yet every russian player has 4 cossacks.


having these said, there is no denying german is a little weak against these who mass muskteers in colonial. but thats more to do with german not having a muskteer counter in colonial, not fault of these cards themselves.

radradrobotanks
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 02:19 PM EDT (US)     16 / 35       
I have seen several 1.09 recs that have convinced me that Uhlans and Doppelsoldners are both very powerful, very underrated units especially when used together.

However, after playing as Germany for a good ten games, I am convinced that they are hideously weak. Unless you age at five minutes (which almost guarantees that you get rushed) or gather wood to build a tp in discovery, you have no shipment upon arriving in colonial. There is nothing you can do against a rush if you have no shipment or if you age at five minutes. Even if you FF, it takes eight minutes to get to fortress, and you don't have enough shipments to protect yourself.

Ranger General
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 05:43 PM EDT (US)     17 / 35       

Quote:

5 Cossacks is like a normal card but resource wise it costs the same as 5 Uhlans.

5 Cossacks is a lv25 card, 5uhlan is in starter deck(which is equivalent to 4 cossack).

I think they should swap 13 Uhlan card(lv25) age4 with 6/7 Uhlan card age2, that would help german a little bit.

If that made german a little bit OP, delete 4Lands card, it is useless in most of the cases(7 doppel>4 Lands).


Ulti's word of wisdom :

since the start of aoe3, every unit that can move has been a direct counter to grenadiers, even villagers(since they have bonuses against siege troops)

[This message has been edited by Ranger General (edited 10-01-2006 @ 05:44 PM).]

Voltiguer
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 06:10 PM EDT (US)     18 / 35       
I have no idea if any german expert used 4 landsknecht in Colonial (didnt everyone ff and merc spam there??) but nowadays its just useless.

What has changed is that it comes a lot slower now (slower merc shipments [1min]), Germany doesnt get shipments at normal speed anymore (they cant waste a shipment on it) and that Colonial fighting is a lot more viable.

If any german expert used it back then I guess they did so to counter a rush and because rushes back then were mainly pure pike ones it was pretty effective.

But now that many players mass LI or HI in Colonial, 4 landsknecht die ridiculously fast.

They are a bit like ronins, just in Colonial and way weaker.

Ronins are strong but ranged units kill them very fast.

Landsknecht are weaker and get killed by ranged units even faster.

IMO they are just a waste of a shipment, of 400 gold and of 8 pop space.

EDIT: @ulti: and you say its better than 4 cossacks which every Russian player uses.

Thats true, but 1) Russia gets 2 cav shipments in age2 and 2) stronger shipments are Germanys bonus!

If you also think about the fact that 5 uhlans come slower than 5 or 4 cossacks and are Germany's bonus while Russia has other bonuses you didnt even think of yet you get my point.

Its a bit like comparing the British 13 Jaeger card for 1500 gold with the German Jaerger card.

Sure, Germany's mercs are better but its their ****bonus!!!

[This message has been edited by Voltiguer (edited 10-01-2006 @ 06:13 PM).]

kapranos
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 06:36 PM EDT (US)     19 / 35       
The card would be fine if ES gave uhlans a bit of a boost.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 07:44 PM EDT (US)     20 / 35       
4 landsks were used in a rush to counter spanish FF. they kill every free spanish fortress shipment, including 2 falcs.

a big question that has been asked for a long time is while german's bonus is better shipments, how much better is too much? or is not enough?

for most non-german players, pre 1.08 state was definitely too good.

slower shipment and uhlan raid nerf may seem too much to some, me personally cant use german well enough, but i have seen enough expert recordings to think that german is not as weak as people think, but they definitely need to be played differently.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 10-01-2006 @ 08:01 PM).]

N_E_Patriots
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 08:57 PM EDT (US)     21 / 35       
Do you want to increase the 3 settler wagon card +2 uhlans as well? I think the reason its 5 uhlans is because you get plenty others with all the other shipments.

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xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 10-01-06 09:16 PM EDT (US)     22 / 35       
5 Uhlans is 750 resources...

5 Cossacks is 750 resources...

Germans are supposed to get better shipments O.o

700 gold/wood/food + 2 uhlans is 1000 resources...

Because Cossacks are slightly worse than Uhlans in combat, Germans should only get one extra Uhlan. Thus 6 Uhlans, 900 resources.

Happy?

Voltiguer
Skirmisher
posted 10-02-06 04:37 AM EDT (US)     23 / 35       

Quote:

Happy?

Yep. Exactly what I meant.

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 10-02-06 05:56 AM EDT (US)     24 / 35       
5 cossacks is the same resource wise as 5 uhlans, but germany's shipments are more expensive (they cost more XP) so really the russian 5 cossack shipment > germany's 5 uhlan shipment. Going along with germany's bonus it should be 7 uhlans IMO.

The german civ is not UP in my opinion. After playing quite a few games with them recently the only times I have lost it has been to 2 jan rushes and 1 musket rush. See the pattern? When I don't get rushed by a unit I can't counter germany are actually really strong. Once I got into fortress the skirm+uhlan+falc+merc combo really rocked - I beat Groni with it - it was just getting taken out in colonial which was the problem for me.

The problem is with xbows. Germany simply has no counter to muskets in colonial - xbows need a little base damage nerf (-1 or 2) and a 1.5x bonus vs HI. The big problem with this game at the moment is that there is no hard counter to HI in colonial except for 3 civs which also *happen* to be the 3 strongest civs in age 2 (definitely not a coincidence).

Voltiguer
Skirmisher
posted 10-02-06 06:11 AM EDT (US)     25 / 35       

Quote:

5 cossacks is the same resource wise as 5 uhlans, but germany's shipments are more expensive (they cost more XP) so really the russian 5 cossack shipment > germany's 5 uhlan shipment. Going along with germany's bonus it should be 7 uhlans IMO.
The german civ is not UP in my opinion. After playing quite a few games with them recently the only times I have lost it has been to 2 jan rushes and 1 musket rush. See the pattern? When I don't get rushed by a unit I can't counter germany are actually really strong. Once I got into fortress the skirm+uhlan+falc+merc combo really rocked - I beat Groni with it - it was just getting taken out in colonial which was the problem for me.

The problem is with xbows. Germany simply has no counter to muskets in colonial - xbows need a little base damage nerf (-1 or 2) and a 1.5x bonus vs HI. The big problem with this game at the moment is that there is no hard counter to HI in colonial except for 3 civs which also *happen* to be the 3 strongest civs in age 2 (definitely not a coincidence).

Yes yes yes and yes.

That's exactly what I've been saying since 1.08.

Germany has a VERY hard time to counter musks and jans in Colonial and xbows just dont cut ir.

The suggestions you made are pretyt nice @Larky because lowering the xbow's base stats would also make cav a better counter for them which just would be fair IMO.

Giving them a bonus vs HI is what we really need.

And if you say "Germany isnt UP" its not exactly true since 6 out of 8 civs get musks or jans in Colonial so the probability of being musk rushed is pretty high.

Germany is about as UP atm as Russia was in 1.07.

Because FF was the common strat back then and Russia wasnt really good at it, they sucked.

Now that musk rush is a commen strat and Germans suck vs it, they are a bit UP.

One of the most important reasons why I switched from Germany to Dutch for a while was that I was tired of being musk/jan rushed every single game.

Dutch dont have this problem - skirms save the day.

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