Skirmishers were overnerfed. They didn't effectively fight off Lancers. Ever. I know, I played Dutch back then and abused the hell out of the problematic melee cav pathfinding.
You could snipe and run Uhlans, Cossacks and Hussars, but you couldn't do that even half way effectively against Lancers or Cuirassiers, not with the HP and ranged resistance those units have. Lancers would be on you and taking huge chunks out of your Skirmishers with every hit (unlike the pathetic 30 damage Hussars did to them).
It's the melee cavalry that's always been broken in this game (due to crappy pathfinding and AI). ES "fixed" this issue by over-nerfing a symptom, not treating the actual desease.
Skirmishers, by their very definition, should be able to effectively hit and run heavy infantry. For this they need to be FASTER. Even if only slightly (even 0.25 more speed would help). Otherwise you end up with the current situation where I set my Jans or Muskets to melee and slaughter the units that are supposed to counter them.
No, Jans were not too strong. Abus Guns were too strong. And got nerfed for it. But incorrectly. ES was unwilling to change the singular reason why Abus Guns were so strong, their seige damage. They were unwilling to change it to normal ranged damage, because it would make the unit less unique. And so we stil have Abus Guns owning all other light infantry. We stil have Abus Guns owning Culverins and Falconets.
And we have Jans which can't protect anything from cavalry unless you REALLY mass them, put 'em in stagger formation and physically block the path to your cannons/light infantry.My don't you love putting words in people's mouths? Where the hell did I say Hussars beat Jans? Hussars aren't attacking the bloody Jans. They're attacking the units that Jans are supposed to protect. Jans, due to their low anti-cav damage can't kill upgraded Hussars fast enough. Veteran Hussars have more HP than Veteran Lancers FFS. They DO get through.
Cuirassiers? That's a complete joke. Unless you physically block off the path with a crapload of Jans, your cannons or Abus are going down. And then your Jans as well, as Skirmishers + Cuirassiers cut through them like a hot knife through butter (this is, btw, one of the reasons Ottomans have trouble with French in 1.09).
And French have trouble surviving to Fortress against Ottomans now? Well that's certainly news to this Ottoman player ...
Quoted from BeachBum:
I hear vet hussars beat cuirs in fort, you ever make those?
You should stop listening to ES_Sandy (who even admitted himself that this claim was ridiculous and based on "erroneous calculations").
Guard Hussars do NOT do decently vs Gendermes. And they most certainly aren't capable of protecting any targets of value from them.
That Jans have more HP and seige is justified because they also COST more. They already had weaker ranged attack than Muskets. I stil see no justification for the ranged attack reduction, which really hurts later on when you have to fight Dragoons.
Yes, Janissaries should've gotten an HP, and even perhaps a seige damage reduction (although it's only 5 more than that of Muskets, for 25 more resources). Reducing their ranged damage should've been on the bottom of the "how to nerf Janissaries" list.
Quoted from BeachBum:
Your either insane or you didn't understand the question.
No, you can't compare an entire civ state from many patches back and not take into account how the other civs were at the time. ES nerfed Jans when there was no longer need for it.
That said, ABUS GUNS with 1.03 stats would make the current Ottomans overpowered. But not JANISSARIES with 1.03 stats (especially nerfed in some other, better way). Nobody's saying that Ottomans should revert to their 1.03 stats. I'm saying that Janissaries have been nerfed incorrectly. Only further weakening the Ottomans' anti-cav capability, and doing NOTHING to address Abus Guns' very reason for being so powerful.
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[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 10-02-2006 @ 11:13 PM).]