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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Why not a black civ?
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Topic Subject:Why not a black civ?
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J_Sorel
Skirmisher
posted 06-21-06 03:39 AM EDT (US)         
The native civ will be OK, but I think that a black one would also be suitable. The Zulu or Mandigo would fit in the game. It is the colonialist era, isn’t it?

The harsh matter is slavery. Black slaves did take an essential part in the development of European colonies in America. In some places like Cuba most workers were black, not European or native. And why not an “Amistad” ship besides the privateers?

I think that blacks would complete the realistic character of the game.

AuthorReplies:
Dieneces
Skirmisher
posted 06-21-06 04:36 AM EDT (US)     1 / 55       
This may be a game about cololization, but it's a game about colonization exclusively in the Americas, not anywhere else.

While some African tribes did make big impacts on the colonizing Britons, Portuguese and so forth, they didn't really have the same militaristic edge as most of the American Indians did (such as the Iroquois), with the Zulus as a notable exception. But that's still not enough to warrant three African civilizations in a game exclusively about the Americas.

As for the slavery issue, you may notice that currently settlers are given a randomized skin colour, including black. This could represent slavery without actually offending anyone.

Personally, I think having American natives fighting for their own rights fits the 'realistic character' of the game just fine for now.


"You cannot discover an inhabited land. Otherwise I could cross the Atlantic and 'discover' England."
- Dekhatkadons, Onondaga Iroquois chief.
PSTool
Skirmisher
posted 06-21-06 04:37 AM EDT (US)     2 / 55       
We already have black villagers which is unrealistic enough. But having a Zulu civilization in the Americans?

kthxbai

J_Sorel
Skirmisher
posted 06-21-06 06:49 AM EDT (US)     3 / 55       
You Dieneces and PCtool are righr, but please think that even Turks are included in this "American-colonizers-only" game, so having a black civ is not such an outlandish suggestion.
Quinarvy
Skirmisher
posted 06-21-06 06:52 AM EDT (US)     4 / 55       
But the Ottomans would have been able to colonize America, they just didnt want to.

The Zulu's and other African tribes couldn't.

Novoa20
Skirmisher
posted 06-21-06 10:17 AM EDT (US)     5 / 55       

Quote:

but please think that even Turks are included in this "American-colonizers-only" game, so having a black civ is not such an outlandish suggestion.

We are not the ones that actually get to decide.

It's ES after all the ones who decide what they want to do with their game.

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 06-21-06 10:57 AM EDT (US)     6 / 55       

Quote:

You Dieneces and PCtool are righr, but please think that even Turks are included in this "American-colonizers-only" game, so having a black civ is not such an outlandish suggestion.

Ottomans = European. European = those that come from Europe.

Africans = African. African = those that come from Africa.

The game is about the European colonization of the Americas, not the African colonization of the Americas.


If the Ottomans wanted to, they could have easily colonized the Americas.

If the Zulu wanted to, they could not have colonized the Americas at all. They didn't have vessels that could travel across the ocean. The best way the Zulus could get to America was to yield themselves to the slave trade.


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Yamato Take
Prince of Tennis
posted 06-21-06 01:25 PM EDT (US)     7 / 55       
This game is about colonization in the Americas, and the sad truth is that Affricans, and blacks were kept in slavery or discriminated for centuries in the Americas. ES would not want to put that in the game.

Cosmopolitan? Check.
lachlan
Skirmisher
posted 06-21-06 06:09 PM EDT (US)     8 / 55       
Would have worked in an Africa expansion. ES chose a different route with different indigenous peoples. I still think they could do some great things with an African themed expansion, its too bad it won't be realized, though this is a fine alternative.
J_Sorel
Skirmisher
posted 06-22-06 03:05 AM EDT (US)     9 / 55       
I agree with lachlan, an African expansion would be great. Of course it should not include black civs only, the Arab cultures from northern Africa are full of possibilities. Egypt was ruled by the Turks for a while and including Ottomans would make then sense. You could also have a Boer or Abyssinian civ for instance.

Yamato Take writes: “ES would not want to put that [slavery] in the game”. Yes. this is a game for politically correct laddies only, I am afraid – Just kidding :-)

Cy Marlayne writes “Ottomans = European. European = those that come from Europe.”

Well, as you may know the question “is Turkey an European country?” is still an open issue over here. There are very different points of view about that.

I think that Ottomans have been included in the game for the sake of exoticisim only.

By the way, I do love to play them.

GavTheDevil
Skirmisher
posted 06-22-06 04:48 AM EDT (US)     10 / 55       
"Well, as you may know the question “is Turkey an European country?” is still an open issue over here. There are very different points of view about that."

general consensus is i believe that Turkey is half in europe half not. They are most likely going to enter the EU soon and i think generally is on a similar term to Russia, which is also considered partly but not completely in europe.

feel free to correct me if i'm wrong or whatever

J_Sorel
Skirmisher
posted 06-22-06 07:10 AM EDT (US)     11 / 55       
Approx. only 1/32 of the Turkish territory is in Europe. And 31/32 are in Asia. Turkey is mainly a Middle East country, not a Balkan country. But that is not the problem, the problem is history, culture, and above all politics.

Yes, Turkey intends to be a part of the European Union but the odds are increasingly against its membership. Its growing population is too large to be definitely ”europeized” within a reasonable term. And many European right-wing parties are also against. The traditional rivalry with Greece is another difficult issue.

Under the EU pressure they recently abolished death penalty (that was one of the conditions) but the truth is that human rights are still on the stake in Turkey.

O.K., this s is a subject for the history forum, not for WCE discussion :-)

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 06-22-06 08:23 AM EDT (US)     12 / 55       
Well, if you put it that way, I personally do not accept that Europe is a separate continent from Asia. They are clearly connected, therefore I prefer to call them, together, Eurasia. I can't really see a dividing line between the two.

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[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 06-22-2006 @ 08:23 AM).]

Novoa20
Skirmisher
posted 06-22-06 09:48 AM EDT (US)     13 / 55       
Anyhow:

Quote:

I agree with lachlan, an African expansion would be great. Of course it should not include black civs only, the Arab cultures from northern Africa are full of possibilities. Egypt was ruled by the Turks for a while and including Ottomans would make then sense. You could also have a Boer or Abyssinian civ for instance.

Several of us, including Lachlan, at one point favored the possibility for an African expansion.

The problem started when ES announced they were going to remain in the Americas. So that is when the vast majority of us lost hope for Africa/Asia in the game (At least in a direct manner).

As far as that even goes, I was still hoping for perhaps another expansion that dealt with Africa/Asia. But since Sandy has given an explanation as to why it won't happen, I just gave up on that also.

Quote:

Well, as you may know the question “is Turkey an European country?” is still an open issue over here. There are very different points of view about that.

Yes but those views should go to the history forums.

Cancer of the Head
Skirmisher
(id: say1988)
posted 06-22-06 01:24 PM EDT (US)     14 / 55       

Quote:

Approx. only 1/32 of the Turkish territory is in Europe. And 31/32 are in Asia. Turkey is mainly a Middle East country, not a Balkan country. But that is not the problem, the problem is history, culture, and above all politics.

Sure modern Turkey has very little of Europe, but back in the days the game is based they had a lot more (including greece for most of it).

But as said before, it comes down to: Could the Turks have gotten to the new world and atempted to colonize? That would be a yes.
Are there african nations that could have? Maybe one or two, but non in the south, such as the Zulu.


I believe this is better than an African expansion. THe foremost reason for this being, if it was an African expansion, the only civs that might appear from outside of Europe would have been in the North where they already used many similar weapons and tactics as Europeans, as it would not make sense to add African native civs unless they added like a half dozen civs split between the Americas and Africa, which just would have been too big (otherwise they likely would have added that many new civs for the x-pack as it is).

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 06-22-06 01:44 PM EDT (US)     15 / 55       

Quote:

You could also have a Boer or Abyssinian civ for instance.

Uh... there already is a Boer civ. They're called the Dutch.


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J_Sorel
Skirmisher
posted 06-23-06 03:06 AM EDT (US)     16 / 55       
Yeah, but armed mounted peasants using guerrilla tactics were difficult to find in the Netherlands in that age, ya know.

That is like saying "Uh... there already is a white North American civ. They're called the Btits." ;-)

Quinarvy
Skirmisher
posted 06-23-06 07:17 AM EDT (US)     17 / 55       
Well, there is a white north american civ, two actually, there called John Blacks Mercenaries and United States.
Dieneces
Skirmisher
posted 06-23-06 10:10 AM EDT (US)     18 / 55       
Campaign civs don't exactly amount to being proper 'civilizations'.

"You cannot discover an inhabited land. Otherwise I could cross the Atlantic and 'discover' England."
- Dekhatkadons, Onondaga Iroquois chief.
Yamato Take
Prince of Tennis
posted 06-23-06 10:53 AM EDT (US)     19 / 55       
How else will I play as pirates then?

Cosmopolitan? Check.
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 06-23-06 11:06 AM EDT (US)     20 / 55       

Quote:

Yeah, but armed mounted peasants using guerrilla tactics were difficult to find in the Netherlands in that age, ya know.
That is like saying "Uh... there already is a white North American civ. They're called the Btits." ;-)

That's not really a good analogy...

A "boer" is a Dutch colonist that usually works on a farm. In fact, I think the word "boer" means "farmer" in Dutch.


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Quinarvy
Skirmisher
posted 06-23-06 01:02 PM EDT (US)     21 / 55       
It does, its on Wikipedia.
Cancer of the Head
Skirmisher
(id: say1988)
posted 06-23-06 02:23 PM EDT (US)     22 / 55       
As for the Boer discussion, that is pointless as far as this topic goes, cause I wouldn't consider Boers black.
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 06-23-06 02:55 PM EDT (US)     23 / 55       
Precisely.

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Smertios
Skirmisher
posted 06-29-06 01:03 PM EDT (US)     24 / 55       
I'm kinda late for this, but I still think black slaves should have been included as mercenaries. I mean, you could send shipments with 5-10 special settlers (black slaves), which would be better than the normal ones. You could be able to send it whenever you wanted to, but you'd have to pay for them.
It's a lot of times more realistic than putting a Zulu tribe (if they were Bantu, it could have been different)...
N_E_Patriots
Skirmisher
posted 06-29-06 01:57 PM EDT (US)     25 / 55       
Why are their no ASIAN civs HUH? Dont talk to me about russia...

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