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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Why Aztecs are the 3rd Civilization
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Topic Subject:Why Aztecs are the 3rd Civilization
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Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 07-30-06 00:32 AM EDT (US)         
Hey all. I'm bored so I decided to post why I think that Aztecs are the 3rd Civilization. So those are the reasons:

1. We know it has to be either Maya, Aztecs or Incas. It can't be another North American civilization, it needs a different art and needs to take a different role than the other natives. So its pretty much obvious its one of the three.

2. Mayas: These guys can probably be eliminated. At a more realistic note their empire felt even before Spain had arrived on the New World, so Aztecs/Incas would be a more viable choice. Though what makes me feel that it isn't them is the last patch... In this patch, Maya natives just got nerfed. Why would ES nerf something that they would need to remove for the X-pack? Were the Iriquois, the worst native, boosted?

3. Incas: Although there are good points about those guys, I have a good reason to believe it isn't them. The Andes map was announced and as far as I know it will have natives, since ES confirmed Patagonia will still be unique. What other natives can you put there besides Incas? I'm sure you would get a few unknown ones, but its highly unlikely.

4. Aztecs: What makes me think that those guys are getting included? Simple... there is all that Sandy history where he said that they are getting removed in the X-pack as minor natives. And, what is better, he edited his post a few days later... why would he do that?

Though those aren't 100% sure reasons they mean something. Everything seems to point to the Aztecs... any comments?


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
AuthorReplies:
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 00:32 AM EDT (US)     1 / 60       
Before I read the rest, I will go ahead and remind you that the Aztecs lived in North America.

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[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 07-30-2006 @ 00:40 AM).]

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 07-30-06 00:34 AM EDT (US)     2 / 60       
I count them as being mesoamerican civs... and in my imaginary map Mexico is in Central America

ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 00:35 AM EDT (US)     3 / 60       

Quote:

I count them as being mesoamerican civs... and in my imaginary map Mexico is in Central America

Right, but let's be realistic here. Mexico is part of both North and Mesoamerica.


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[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 07-30-2006 @ 00:36 AM).]

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 07-30-06 00:37 AM EDT (US)     4 / 60       
So I'm 50% right.

ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 00:40 AM EDT (US)     5 / 60       

Quote:

So I'm 50% right.

Lol, fair enough.


Quote:

In this patch, Maya natives just got nerfed. Why would ES nerf something that they would need to remove for the X-pack? Were the Iriquois, the worst native, boosted?

They were probably nerfed because they have good spearmen, and the Spanish are going to be able to ship them from their HC in the expansion.

Quote:

What other natives can you put there besides Incas? I'm sure you would get a few unknown ones, but its highly unlikely.

The Aymara could be present on all of the maps that the Incas are currently on.

Quote:

What makes me think that those guys are getting included? Simple... there is all that Sandy history where he said that they are getting removed in the X-pack as minor natives. And, what is better, he edited his post a few days later... why would he do that?

If your only reason for thinking it's Aztecs is because of something Sandy said he was joking about, then you actually have nothing. Haha.


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Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 07-30-06 00:45 AM EDT (US)     6 / 60       

Quote:

Lol, fair enough.

Thanks

Quote:

They were probably nerfed because they have good spearmen, and the Spanish are going to be able to ship them from their HC in the expansion.

Iriquois have a bad tomahwak, but they weren't boosted. Also there will be a lot more of Natives that are going to be shiped through the HC, but none of them got a change.

Quote:

The Aymara could be present on all of the maps that the Incas are currently on.

They are kind of unknown... aren't they?

Quote:

If your only reason for thinking it's Aztecs is because of something Sandy said he was joking about, then you actually have nothing. Haha.

You see. If it its the Aztecs you have just put Sandy in a really bad position Anyway you have to admit its a little bit weird... he even asked people to stop trying to discover the next civ after that because we could put him in a really bad place.


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 01:18 AM EDT (US)     7 / 60       

Quote:

They are kind of unknown... aren't they?

Aren't the Klamath just as unknown?


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[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 07-30-2006 @ 01:26 AM).]

KaSt0R
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 02:46 AM EDT (US)     8 / 60       

Quote:

< WolfBlade> *Hellblazer970-gs* You've named that the spanish get Maya indians, Dutch get Carib indians, can you (possibly) tell us what the other civs get regarding native american mercanaries?

<ES_Sandyman> we don't want to give everything away, but in general civs get native allies who lived in areas that the civ historically colonized. ...

<ES_Sandyman> The British get Cherokee for instance, while the Russians get Nootka.

Maya AREN'T the civ because French ship them as minor allies from HC otherwise they shipped Aztecs, but they are major!

If these shipments also shipped major civ units they'h ship also Iroquois for British, but they don't! They ship Cherokee...

So it MUST be Inca or Aztecs.

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 02:49 AM EDT (US)     9 / 60       

Quote:

otherwise they shipped Aztecs, but they are major!

The Spanish wouldn't ship Aztec native mercenaries because the Spanish fought against the Aztecs. The Mayan native mercenaries simply represent the fact that the Spanish made allies with tribes who resented the Aztecs so that they had more forces to destroy the Aztec Empire.


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KaSt0R
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 03:05 AM EDT (US)     10 / 60       
That's not the point. The point is, that Maya are MINOR not MAJOR
nidhog_slayer
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 07:43 AM EDT (US)     11 / 60       
You can´t forgot warrior priests bein announced ^^. Because they totally fit onto Aztec civ.
Drinian
Savage Norseman
(id: TimmySpok)
posted 07-30-06 08:49 AM EDT (US)     12 / 60       
Warrior priests fit with incas too.


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Cheruscan
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 09:44 AM EDT (US)     13 / 60       
The Cat was let out of the bag in an 'unintentional' slip up in a question and answer session.

Ever since then, there has been a serious attempt at a cover up to make players believe it was a joke.

I see this kind of maneuver quite often where I work. Someone leaks a secret or confidential memo by accident and then there is more time and effort spent on a cover up when admitting the truth would not change a thing.

What is the big deal about keeping the 3rd Native Playable Civ a secret anyway?
It doesn't really matter and players will buy the X-pak regardless of which tribe is in or out.

It is a lot to do about nothing.

There will be players upset about either choice no matter what.
Just like the original when the Ottomans were put in when so many players were screaming for their favorite European Civ.

There are many many players now who find satisfaction (to prove they were right) in making MOD Packs.Since additional Civ's can be created, any European or Native Civ is capable of becoming a MOD. Keep that in mind and think about why you really play the game. ES would have been better off announcing the 3rd CIV right away and then all the hypothetical speculation time could have been devoted to preparation and intro sale hype.

Unless you are planning to start over as a Native HC, does it really matter who the new cannon fodder is?


"The Greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you,to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears,to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters"...Ghengis Khan



Yamato Take
Prince of Tennis
posted 07-30-06 10:16 AM EDT (US)     14 / 60       
Mesoamerica/Central America is part of North America.

Quote:

What other natives can you put there besides Incas? I'm sure you would get a few unknown ones, but its highly unlikely.

Uh... the new minor tribe ES announced that will use Mabobos.

Cheruscan. This isn't some crazy cver-up conspiracy. Sandy wouldn't have been stupid enough to slip up like that, he's a professional game designer. He's done stuff like this before. One little joke isn't going to change what signs have pointed to since the X-pack was announced.


Cosmopolitan? Check.

[This message has been edited by Yamato Take (edited 07-30-2006 @ 10:20 AM).]

Novoa20
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 10:22 AM EDT (US)     15 / 60       

Quote:

They are kind of unknown... aren't they?

Just because you don't know about S.American Natives it does not mean you can call them unknown. The Aymaras are very known, and the only reason they weren't added was because the major quantity of the "Known" tribes were chosen from North America.

Quote:

So I'm 50% right.


Quote:

It can't be another North American civilization

The Aztecs are in North America. Whereas they just represent but one nation, the Incas represent five nations.

MesoAmerica isn't South America, it is a part of North America and as such that's a reason as to why the Aztecs won't be the third civilization.

Quote:

You can´t forgot warrior priests bein announced

1. The Native Tribes are being implemented new things. It's quite likely that the Aztecs are getting a new unit for their tribe, the warrior priest.

2. The Incas didn't have priests which fought. But ES does crazy things...

Quote:

The Cat was let out of the bag in an 'unintentional' slip up in a question and answer session.

That's your opinion. Everything you're saying is your opinion.

I think Sandy just got angry at that idiotic question which said that "Having both Mayas and Aztecs on a map makes them OP" which if you really look at it carefully it just would give you a good laugh and you'll realize why Sandy said what he did.

Cancer of the Head
Skirmisher
(id: say1988)
posted 07-30-06 11:24 AM EDT (US)     16 / 60       
First, Just a Player:
1. As evceryone else said Mesoamerica is par of north America. Saying it isn't is like saying the Middle East is not part of Europe.
If you want you could say you think the third civ would be from Latin-America (as it includes part of bother North and South), though.

2. First part I agree, second part I don't.

Quote:

Though what makes me feel that it isn't them is the last patch... In this patch, Maya natives just got nerfed. Why would ES nerf something that they would need to remove for the X-pack? Were the Iriquois, the worst native, boosted?


You do realize people will still play the vanilla version? And for the Tomahawk comment, havign a weak native ally is better than one who is too strong. Sure you both have a shot at the native TPs, but with a focus on colonial warfare and weaker TCs a Maya rush would be too powerful....

3. We know there is a native tribe from South America so go from there. Aymara are probably as well known i general to at least the Klamath.

4. Maybe Sandy did that just for this purpose, to create interest and get people talking about the x-pack.

Quote:

Maya AREN'T the civ because French ship them as minor allies from HC


Umm, unles I missed soemthing that should read Spanish. Perhaps just a mistake?

Quote:

What is the big deal about keeping the 3rd Native Playable Civ a secret anyway?
It doesn't really matter and players will buy the X-pak regardless of which tribe is in or out.


Not stating the third tribe isn't about which tribe is in. It is about publicity. When they say which it is, it will likely be at the front of many gaming websites and followign the pattern of the last two, it will be announced on gamespot and there will be more details a short time later on IGN, which gets a fair bit of publicity (free publicity). Which gets more people interested and could well boost sales. It may even boost sales of vanilla as people see they want the Warchiefs and have to buy AoE3 ot play it. The third civ will be key in hyping it up before release.

Also, mods aren't great if you play online, cause to play most people you have to have the standard games....

Novoa20
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 11:44 AM EDT (US)     17 / 60       

Quote:

Saying it isn't is like saying the Middle East is not part of Europe.

You mean Asia?

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 07-30-06 12:01 PM EDT (US)     18 / 60       

Quote:

You do realize people will still play the vanilla version? And for the Tomahawk comment, havign a weak native ally is better than one who is too strong. Sure you both have a shot at the native TPs, but with a focus on colonial warfare and weaker TCs a Maya rush would be too powerful....

So you are basically saying that ES did an uncomplete job and just ignored a underpowered natives when they could have boosted them?

Quote:

4. Maybe Sandy did that just for this purpose, to create interest and get people talking about the x-pack.


Quote:

heruscan. This isn't some crazy cver-up conspiracy. Sandy wouldn't have been stupid enough to slip up like that, he's a professional game designer. He's done stuff like this before. One little joke isn't going to change what signs have pointed to since the X-pack was announced.

Maybe... But do you realize if it is the Aztecs you all that think it was just a planned joke and that Sandy isn't dumb enough to make such thing have just put him in a very bad position?

Though I doubt it. Even if he did, he wouldn't spend his time to edit his post which was left 4 pages behind. Probably there was some major force there that 'asked' him to do it...

And of course Mexico isn't part of South America, that is just dumb. Anyway my point was that it needs to be something from Mesoamerica and under, because a USA/Canada would be too similar at some points and would include just a small fraction of the whole continent. Though this doesn't reall mater, because most people here agree with me when I say it has to be one of the three...


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
Cancer of the Head
Skirmisher
(id: say1988)
posted 07-30-06 12:36 PM EDT (US)     19 / 60       

Quote:

You mean Asia?


Yeah, that was one stupid mistake.

Quote:

So you are basically saying that ES did an uncomplete job and just ignored a underpowered natives when they could have boosted them?


Maybe people at ES don't think that Iroquois are too UP, anyways I believe an UP native is a lot better to have then a native as OP as the Maya in a rush heavy game.

Quote:

Though I doubt it. Even if he did, he wouldn't spend his time to edit his post which was left 4 pages behind. Probably there was some major force there that 'asked' him to do it...


a) I suspect he is willing to spen the 30 seconds it would take to edit a post. It is not a hard thing to do.
b)maybe someone asked him to edit it, heck, maybe someone higher up asked him to put the comment in in the first place to stir things up. There are too many possibilities. Maybe he screwed up, maybe he was joking we don't know for certain. This thing has become just like the "Lakota minor tribe" comment.....

Quote:

Anyway my point was that it needs to be something from Mesoamerica and under, because a USA/Canada would be too similar at some points and would include just a small fraction of the whole continent.


The Arguement about geography heavily favours Inca because the Southern part of North America is stil North America.

[This message has been edited by say1988 (edited 07-30-2006 @ 12:40 PM).]

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 12:41 PM EDT (US)     20 / 60       
I think the evidence shows that the Aztecs are not in because of the fact that Sandy couldn't joke about them being in if they are. MS would slap him a pink slip and a law suit faster than you can say "Hey Sandy! Want a beer? Oh, yeah, you're Mormon... damn."

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Cancer of the Head
Skirmisher
(id: say1988)
posted 07-30-06 12:46 PM EDT (US)     21 / 60       
Unless the "I was joking" really was a cover-up.....

Which is really why I am not reading into it one way or the other.

Cheruscan
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 01:22 PM EDT (US)     22 / 60       
The fact that Sandy is a professional game designer does not in any way give him super powers or immunity over whether or not an accidental slip-up was made or not. Secrets have a way of becoming public knowledge when more than one person is included. There are already too many people who tknow the truth to keep it secret much longer.(Especially since it will make no difference in sales). Only a serious blunder or design flaw would do that, not a secret idenity of Aztec or Incas.


Of course when a slip-up or accidenral leak of classified or confidental information becomes public, what else is the guilty party going to say if the leak was true but for some reason the veil of secrecy has to be maintained.

The natural responce was to say it was a joke.

However they run a serious risk of loosing credibility. It's not like it is a lie that harms someone. Hey every one tells white lies and every one responces about kiidding or joking to keep from being embarassed. When some one jokes around and it becomes known tha tthat is their character, how much else of what they say can be believed as true.

For all we know, there may have been a bigger deception and conspiracy cover up about the whole x-pak. Just what is the truth anyway?. I don't think it matters....

It will serve all of us right, if neither the Azrec or Incas were the 3rd civ, and we did indeed get a surprise......however unlikely that is.....It would make for excellent conversation on how the wool was pulled over out eyes.

However, If some one dileberatly lied to me about something so insignificant, I would not trust that person in matters of importance. I would not call them a liar because circumstances may have necessated the remark but then again I would take everything they said with a grain of salt.

It is like the old proverb says. "There is only one place to lie.... and that is in bed".

Take it for what it's worth.


"The Greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you,to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears,to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters"...Ghengis Khan



lachlan
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 01:34 PM EDT (US)     23 / 60       
The bottom line is that you can analyze Sandy's statement to mean the Aztecs or Inca's are in depending on how you look at it. Ergo it really hasn't any meaning at all.

I agree that the Mayans are out and he's right that they wouldn't put in a minor patch change on a unit that would likely be redesigned for the X-Pack. The Mayans have beend considered a distant third anyway.

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 01:51 PM EDT (US)     24 / 60       
I'll use my intuition to say again that I think he was intentional and the Aztecs won't be the third civ.

They might be more fun to play in this game than the last game, but I just can't see how the Aztecs can make an appearance in the third act, which occurs after the 1860's. By that time, the Aztecs are gone. Most of them have become mestizo. In fact, I don't think there exists any full-blooded Aztecs.

If you look at the pattern of the acts, however, it would make sense that the story begins on the East Coast and works its way across North America. They could go from the East Coast to the Great Plains and down to Sonora, but the Mexican Independence occured in 1810, so that doesn't fit the timeline, and even if it did, the Aztecs and their low-tech weapons would have little to do with the war.

The storyline could somehow take the Black family to Peru, where the final act could illustrate, not Peru's independence, but their final recognization of independence in 1879 from Spain, and the act could move on to illustrate the War of the Pacific. However, that act would have to illustrate the Incas having gunpowder weapons, which is not how they're supposed to be.

So with that said, the final act could always be a flash back to explain an event that ties the Black family with the first two acts and answer some questions that weren't answered in those acts. Who knows.


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Nezahualcoyotl
Skirmisher
posted 07-30-06 03:01 PM EDT (US)     25 / 60       
why couldn't they just made Sioux OR Iriqous, and then Aztec and Inca? That would have been so much better for everyone.
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