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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Sioux sound insane (9 Rifle Riders one shot kill Falconets, while also acting as Dragoons and Skirmishers)
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Topic Subject:Sioux sound insane (9 Rifle Riders one shot kill Falconets, while also acting as Dragoons and Skirmishers)
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Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 01:45 AM EDT (US)         
I present to you, the Sioux Rifle Rider. Pay special attention to the rate of fire of this gunpowder unit. Pay even more attention to the damage bonuses it recieves.

StaggerRangedAttack: 13 (Ranged), ROF: 1.5, Range: 0-12, Bonuses: HeavyCavalry x 3.0, Villager x 0.5, HeavyInfantry x 3.0, Artillery x 6.0, Ship x 6.0

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, that's not a typo. That is, indeed, a 6.0 bonus against artillery.

Now, that 13 base damage, those aren't even Veteran stats. Veteran stats become 16.25 damage (because Natives upgrade is 1.25, no 1.2 as for Europeans). That's 16.25 damage every 1.5 seconds. But more than a single shot isn't even necessary for Falconets!

Take 10 Rifle Riders, get in range of a Falconet and:

16.25 x 6.0 = 97.5 damage from a SINGLE rider.

97.5 x 0.25 (ranged resistance) = 24.375 damage a single rider will do to a Falconet. Which in reality means that it takes a mere 9 Riders to ONE SHOT KILL that Falconet.

This unit is essentially, all in one a:

Dragoon (3x vs heavy cavalry).
Skirmisher upgraded with CIR (see the 3x vs heavy infantry).
And is 60% as good as an Abus Gun at taking out artillery (that's BEFORE we take into account the 1.5 rate of fire).

Oh, let's not forget that this "Dragoon" and "Skirmisher" actually has TWICE the rate of fire of either of those units. No, in reality, this thing does:

97.5 damage to HvyCav in the same time a Dragoon does 78.
97.5 damage to HvyInf in the same time a Skirmisher does 36.

Are we getting worried yet?

That's not all though. Don't let any of your fishing boats get too close to the shore. Cause these things have a 6x against ships too!

So, you must think by now that such a unit must have an insane cost and pop requirement, right? Um ... no.

Cost: 120 food, 100 gold.

In comparison, the old broken War Wagons used to cost: 150 food and 150 gold. One of the fiercest units in the game now, the Cuirassier, costs the same 300 resources. Yet neither unit can do HALF the stuff the Rifle Rider can.

So pop space must be what's going to keep this unit down, right? Nope.

Population requirement: 2

Ofcourse the bigger joke is that SIOUX START WITH 200 FREE POP SPACE.

So, are we worried yet?

You can cry, but I'm going to laugh. Cause I think to hell with Ottomans and Dutch, I'm heading to Sioux land ...



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
AuthorReplies:
somme
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 02:30 AM EDT (US)     1 / 56       
*Plays Sioux as first civ when TWC comes out*

Warwagon: 500hp, 6 speed, 16 range, 0.2 hand armour, 42 ranged attack, with a rate of fire of 3.0.

Total Damage vs Cavalry:126(resistance not included)
Total Damage vs Heavy Infantry: 42
Total Damage vs Falconet: 21(including ranged resist)
Total Damage vs Light Infantry: 29.4(including ranged resist)

Riflerider: HP 256.25, 6.75 speed, ROF of 1.5, 0.3 hand armour

Every 3 seconds they will do

Total Damage vs Cavalry: 97.5
Total Damage vs Heavy Infantry: 97.5
Total Damage vs Falconet: 48.6(including RR)
Total Damage vs Light Infantry: 22.75(including ranged resist)

That is higher damage vs everything except cavalry and LI. Not bad for a unit that is 30 food and 50 coin cheaper and builds 17 seconds faster. However Ender are you sure that the stats in the proto are not already veteran stats such as the ones for a curiasseer.


ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe

[This message has been edited by somme (edited 10-10-2006 @ 02:51 AM).]

FurKil
Banned
posted 10-10-06 02:32 AM EDT (US)     2 / 56       
and in the end it turns out that every civ is OP according to ender and we all live a long and happy life.


If i look @ my proto it looks like it is both classified as light and heavy cav. So both dragoons, skirmishers and heavy infantry in melee get a bonus against them. So i doubt they can kill much cannons with 12 range. Only thing is that fire rate looks kinda high

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 02:34 AM EDT (US)     3 / 56       
Hell you done figured the game out Ender. The Slaoon with Otto and Dutch is OP. Now a Sioux unit no one used is "INSANE".

WHy even play the game, you got it all figured out.


===========================

How much health does this unit have?

What age can you field the unit?

Its Range is that of a standard gunpowerder unit, and what kind of ranged resist do they have?

It seems as tho they are the Souix answer to Artillery, and can later be used to deter HI heavy forces.

Whats its speed? They arent great raiders, and they base damage is exremely low, but fast. They would do about 26 damage every 3 secs to light inf and about 80 damage very 3 secs against HEAVY cav.

120 food and 100 gold is fairly but not too expensive for such a diversive unit. ES had to do soemthing with the lack of artillery the Sioux have, were are going to see a more diverse selection of units in TWC.

However i dont think the unit will be INSANE and OMG its so OP, every1 pick sioux becuz of the l33t rider. It will be def worth the money, but a decent number of LI would do them in. Not to mention a faster ranged cav unit with a bonus to cav will shit on them.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by ub3r (edited 10-10-2006 @ 03:12 AM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 02:42 AM EDT (US)     4 / 56       
this unit is:
HeavyCavalry, LightCavalry, Cavalry, RangedCavalry, GunpowderCavalry

being heavy cavalry means it is countered by melee heavy infantry as well as light cavalry.

and light infantry of course since it is also an light cavalry.

it has the least HP for its cost compared to any cavalry, even worse than uhlans.

my guess is they are ranged version of uhlans, expensive and frigile but can do a lot of damage.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 10-10-2006 @ 02:43 AM).]

somme
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 02:56 AM EDT (US)     5 / 56       
As others have pointed out, the rifle rider has two types:

<UnitType>AbstractHeavyCavalry</UnitType>
<UnitType>AbstractLightCavalry</UnitType>

This means that they will be utterly destroyed by dragoons or warwagons and if heavy infantry get in melee mode, beware.


ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 03:04 AM EDT (US)     6 / 56       

Quoted from FurKil:

and in the end it turns out that every civ is OP according to ender and we all live a long and happy life.

Huh, and here I thought Ottomans, Dutch and Sioux are 3 civs, not 11 ...

Besides, we don't even know Sioux are actually overpowered or not. We just know they have one damn good and one nearly insane unit. And this the title of this thread. Sious sound insane. It remains to be seen whether or not they actually are.

Quoted from FurKil:

So i doubt they can kill much cannons with 12 range.

Cause that stopped Dragoons so well since 1.06 ...

Quoted from ub3r:

WHy even play the game, you got it all figured out.

Are you really, or just pretending to be an idiot? I'm pointing out one seemingly incredible unit. You jump from there to me having figured out the game?

As for your questions ... since you're apparently too lazy to look up the stats yourself, I'll do you a favour:

Veteran RifleRider:

HP: 256

Allowed age: Fortress

Resists: 30% melee

They are the Sioux answer to (had you bothered to actually read):
Heavy Infantry
Artillery
Heavy Cavalry
Not counting ships, that's three unit types that the Rider counters.

Their speed is 6.8, or slightly faster than most European HvyCav.

Had you again bothered to read, you'd have seen they do 97.5 damage to HvyCav every 3 seconds.

Just because a unit can't be a great raider that makes it worthless in your world? Newsflash, a bunch of excellent units make poor raiders. Like the Abus Gun and Lancer, for example.

220 resources is expensive for a unit that counters three unit types?! Hello, McFly! Anyone home? That's (80) less than a War Wagon or Cuirassier. Hell that's only 20 more resources than a bleeding Hussar!

Yes, we're going to see a diverse selection of units in TWC. You know the only unit types that the Rifle Rider doesn't counter? Light infantry and ranged cavalry. It counters everything else possible on the field FFS. Aside from the Abus Gun, name me another unit that directly counters three unit types please.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 03:10 AM EDT (US)     7 / 56       
Ultimitsu and Somme,

You're looking at the non-veteran stats. Multiply that 205HP by 1.25 for the real value you're going to see ingame.

Second, we all know that melee HvyInf doesn't catch 6.8 speed units. And with the Rider hit and running melee heavy infantry will be incredibly effective since they get a 3x bonus agains it.
Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the Riders won outright against melee HvyInf that made it in range because of the insane damage they do to it and 30% melee resistance.

Ranged heavy infantry (Muskets, etc) will do damage, yes, but it would be akin to pitting Muskets vs Highlanders. A complete slaughter, due to massive differences in damage output.

In reality, the only direct counter the Rider has is ranged cavalry. But what happens when you put Rifle Riders, Axe Riders and Warbows together?


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 10-10-2006 @ 03:10 AM).]

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 03:10 AM EDT (US)     8 / 56       
Exactly why i mentioned you will see new, and different types of units with new and different types of bonus to other units.

I was saying that therye cost considered all they counter is GREAT. If you would have read it correctly.

Now you pointed out that the unit has 250 soemthign heealth, with NO ranged resist, and cant be trained untill the 3rd age. It has decent speed, but not that of say a Dragoon or Ruyter or even Schwarzen Ritters. Ranged cav would counter them very effectively citing therye low health and non existant ranged resist.

Dont get me wrong they do SEEM like a great unit with alot of diversity. This may be the backbone unit of ones Sioux attack, considering they are calvary heavy. However i dont thin it will be INSANE.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
The Crazy Idiot
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 03:15 AM EDT (US)     9 / 56       
Tommorow, Ender finds another OP civ!
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 03:23 AM EDT (US)     10 / 56       


i had taken vet into account, 220 res for 256 HP is indeed lowest HP per res you get for any cavalry.

melee HI counters them once they get into melee, 2 vet pike/ muskts/rod/halb will kill it with ease.

until we see it, we wont know how well it will hit and run, so far no units with 1.5 ROF have been able to HnR.

at this point, i think this unit is countered by LI, RC, and HI. pretty badly too considering how little hp you get.

GreatViet
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 03:23 AM EDT (US)     11 / 56       
hey dude pay him some respect , at least he save ur works to search through all those lines, dont like his post ? ignore it, it's all about info , nothing to disccuss or flame.
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 03:38 AM EDT (US)     12 / 56       

Quoted from ultimitsu:

melee HI counters them once they get into melee, 2 vet pike/ muskts/rod/halb will kill it with ease.

Umm, how exactly are Pikes and Halbererds or Muskets in melee supposed to catch them? They don't catch even Ruyters with Coffee Trade, so how exactly is this supposed to happen? People MICRO their units, remember? In the real world (game) melee heavy infantry, aside from Rodeleros, rarely catch Dragoons/Ruyters in melee. And the Rider is just like them.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

until we see it, we wont know how well it will hit and run, so far no units with 1.5 ROF have been able to HnR.


It's not an archer. Why would it have a set up time? Even the Outlaw Rider (also ranged cav) doesn't have a set up time. It's a gunpowder unit, it'll hit and run like every other. This is just grasping at straws really.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

at this point, i think this unit is countered by LI, RC, and HI. pretty badly too considering how little hp you get.

It isn't countered by melee HvyInf, and it counters ranged HvyInf way better than it get contered back.
LhtInf and RngCav will pose problems only when the Riders are unsupported by other units. In combinations, Riders will pose a tremendous problem.

Think about it:

Axe Riders, Rifle Riders and Warbows. You have massive HvyInf countering going on here. You have very strong RngCav counters in Warbows. You have strong counters to LhtInf in Axe Riders and soft counters in Warbows. You have an unbelievably strong artillery counter in the Rifle Rider.
How do you propose to fight this combination cost effectively?

A better question, how do you propose to keep HvyInf meatshields alive against that combo? And when they're dead, what's to stop Axe Riders from annihilating what these HvyInf were protecting?


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
The Bob
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 03:39 AM EDT (US)     13 / 56       
lucky me ive wanted to play sioux since they were first announced
FurKil
Banned
posted 10-10-06 03:55 AM EDT (US)     14 / 56       
outlaw riflemen got setup time
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 04:36 AM EDT (US)     15 / 56       

Quoted from FurKil:

outlaw riflemen got setup time

That's because the animations for the Rifleman and Pistoliero were lifted directly from the treasure guardian versions. The units don't even have a melee attack animation.

The Outlaw Rider (Commanchero) does not have a set up time, because the treasure guardian version doesn't have it.

The Sioux Rifle Rider is a newly created and animated unit, so it's extremely unlikely it'll have the side effect of set up time, seing as it's a gunpowder unit and almost all of them have instant fire.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 07:26 AM EDT (US)     16 / 56       

Quote:

97.5 x 0.25 (ranged resistance) = 24.375 damage a single rider will do to a Falconet. Which in reality means that it takes a mere 9 Riders to ONE SHOT KILL that Falconet.

Wouldn't the damage be 73.125 per rider?

When you calculate against resistance, you have to subtract the damage resisted from the base damage.


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Mokon
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 08:38 AM EDT (US)     17 / 56       
I defenitly agree. Every unit in the game is OP...

Guys, really tho dont worry. Will there be imbalances? Yes but at least wait until you have the game in mp b4 you start saying XYZ is OP. The game isnt out yet


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  • MNBob
    Skirmisher
    posted 10-10-06 08:55 AM EDT (US)     18 / 56       
    Cy: Instead of subtracting the 75% resistance of a falconet he just multiplied by .25.

    Abus Guns and Grenadiers ARE NOT ARTILLERY!
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    Ossian
    Skirmisher
    posted 10-10-06 08:58 AM EDT (US)     19 / 56       
    I agree with mokon, and think about all the weakness's that natives have.

  • Weak navy
  • No saloon
  • Aztecs don't even have much of a special civ ability
  • I think they have weak late game due to no revalution

    Just to name a few


    *WINDOWS CRITICAL ERROR 19891126*
    Product ID: Ossian Discontinued
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    about this special edition of player...

    Allthough cetans are darker, did you know that if you read the word 'cetan' as a dutch word, that you get the same sound as when reading 'satan' in english.-Furby Killer
  • MightyFireball
    Skirmisher
    posted 10-10-06 11:12 AM EDT (US)     20 / 56       
    I'm thinking we should wait until the game actually comes out before we start worrying which units are going to be overpowered. In other words, I agree with Mokon.

    Smoke Rings Award Winner
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    nidhog_slayer
    Skirmisher
    posted 10-10-06 11:19 AM EDT (US)     21 / 56       
    welcome to sioux wagon ender :P

    i also can imagine, that sioux other units will stand out, as ES has mentioned the excellent lancer like unit (dog soldier most propably) (think that they will be about same as elmeti to infatry) well... im not thinking that you need introduce to units, but just mentioning them their stats would be very cool to see. as tashunke prowler will most probably be the best raider in game. (enemy units cant go trough stealthed, so just block villagers to hunt, and reveal some middle tashunkes, and kill villagers whitouth them having possibilities to escape.

    Also im waiting to see how much xplorer boosts speed, because this is really making sioux hit and run superior to any ranged cav (but maybe ports +6 range card)

    GoWithTheFlow
    Skirmisher
    posted 10-10-06 11:30 AM EDT (US)     22 / 56       
    I know wont go down well but I will post it anyway.

    -Ender , seriously , get out more. Wait for the real game and the actual units in action, not just simple theory. Its not that long to wait. Also Claiming that everything will be so OP just from this theory ? And you ever heard of patches? If everything is SOOO horrificaly bad im sure ES will patch it soon enough anyway.

    Ender_Ward
    Skirmisher
    posted 10-10-06 01:03 PM EDT (US)     23 / 56       

    Quoted from GoWithTheFlow:

    -Ender , seriously , get out more.

    I could ... but I don't think my colleagues would appreciate me not being around if we were called in to handle a problem ...

    My job has alot of waiting for something to happen (which we then have to fix ASAP, because production is stopped and the plant loses money every minute). I gotta do something in that time. If I had access to it, I would be on ESO. But since I don't ... this and other forums is second best.

    Quoted from GoWithTheFlow:

    Also Claiming that everything will be so OP

    Interesting, in the universe I live in, one unit does not constitute "everything".


    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    Adam42
    Skirmisher
    posted 10-10-06 01:22 PM EDT (US)     24 / 56       
    Love it when people are quick to wave the "you have no life" stick... ofcourse people with free time don't have a life.. *rolls eyes*

    Guys Ender isn't trying to say he knows everything about the balance of TWC, but it is blatantly obvious which units will be good just from looking at stats and using stuff we already know about aoe3. Nowhere did Ender say Sioux were OP, I'm seeing strawman arguments in their dozens here.. I'm looking through these GD forums and he's said 3 general things:

    -Dutch and Ottos will be strong in TWC because of the Saloon, and it benefits them more than other civs.
    -Warbows are arguably better than longbows and definitely better than skirmishers - making them excellent.
    -Rifle Riders are insane because they get a huge bonuses against loads of units.

    "zomg he thinks he noes everything!!1"

    He has done nothing but look at the stats of the TWC units and apply his current knowledge of AoE3 vanilla to fill the gaps. At this point probably everyone will come in and flame me saying I am an ass-licker or whatever, but I guess anyone who agrees with anyone has that coming to them. *sarcasm*

    somme
    Skirmisher
    posted 10-10-06 01:53 PM EDT (US)     25 / 56       

    Quote:

    Love it when people are quick to wave the "you have no life" stick... ofcourse people with free time don't have a life.. *rolls eyes*

    Guys Ender isn't trying to say he knows everything about the balance of TWC, but it is blatantly obvious which units will be good just from looking at stats and using stuff we already know about aoe3. Nowhere did Ender say Sioux were OP, I'm seeing strawman arguments in their dozens here.. I'm looking through these GD forums and he's said 3 general things:

    -Dutch and Ottos will be strong in TWC because of the Saloon, and it benefits them more than other civs.
    -Warbows are arguably better than longbows and definitely better than skirmishers - making them excellent.
    -Rifle Riders are insane because they get a huge bonuses against loads of units.

    "zomg he thinks he noes everything!!1"

    He has done nothing but look at the stats of the TWC units and apply his current knowledge of AoE3 vanilla to fill the gaps. At this point probably everyone will come in and flame me saying I am an ass-licker or whatever, but I guess anyone who agrees with anyone has that coming to them. *sarcasm*

    Post of the week.

    ESO : Pcfreak8
    "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
    A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
    Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
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