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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Sioux sound insane (9 Rifle Riders one shot kill Falconets, while also acting as Dragoons and Skirmishers)
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Topic Subject:Sioux sound insane (9 Rifle Riders one shot kill Falconets, while also acting as Dragoons and Skirmishers)
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Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 01:45 AM EDT (US)         
I present to you, the Sioux Rifle Rider. Pay special attention to the rate of fire of this gunpowder unit. Pay even more attention to the damage bonuses it recieves.

StaggerRangedAttack: 13 (Ranged), ROF: 1.5, Range: 0-12, Bonuses: HeavyCavalry x 3.0, Villager x 0.5, HeavyInfantry x 3.0, Artillery x 6.0, Ship x 6.0

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, that's not a typo. That is, indeed, a 6.0 bonus against artillery.

Now, that 13 base damage, those aren't even Veteran stats. Veteran stats become 16.25 damage (because Natives upgrade is 1.25, no 1.2 as for Europeans). That's 16.25 damage every 1.5 seconds. But more than a single shot isn't even necessary for Falconets!

Take 10 Rifle Riders, get in range of a Falconet and:

16.25 x 6.0 = 97.5 damage from a SINGLE rider.

97.5 x 0.25 (ranged resistance) = 24.375 damage a single rider will do to a Falconet. Which in reality means that it takes a mere 9 Riders to ONE SHOT KILL that Falconet.

This unit is essentially, all in one a:

Dragoon (3x vs heavy cavalry).
Skirmisher upgraded with CIR (see the 3x vs heavy infantry).
And is 60% as good as an Abus Gun at taking out artillery (that's BEFORE we take into account the 1.5 rate of fire).

Oh, let's not forget that this "Dragoon" and "Skirmisher" actually has TWICE the rate of fire of either of those units. No, in reality, this thing does:

97.5 damage to HvyCav in the same time a Dragoon does 78.
97.5 damage to HvyInf in the same time a Skirmisher does 36.

Are we getting worried yet?

That's not all though. Don't let any of your fishing boats get too close to the shore. Cause these things have a 6x against ships too!

So, you must think by now that such a unit must have an insane cost and pop requirement, right? Um ... no.

Cost: 120 food, 100 gold.

In comparison, the old broken War Wagons used to cost: 150 food and 150 gold. One of the fiercest units in the game now, the Cuirassier, costs the same 300 resources. Yet neither unit can do HALF the stuff the Rifle Rider can.

So pop space must be what's going to keep this unit down, right? Nope.

Population requirement: 2

Ofcourse the bigger joke is that SIOUX START WITH 200 FREE POP SPACE.

So, are we worried yet?

You can cry, but I'm going to laugh. Cause I think to hell with Ottomans and Dutch, I'm heading to Sioux land ...



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
AuthorReplies:
TarsTarkas
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 02:02 PM EDT (US)     26 / 56       

Quoted from Adam42:

Love it when people are quick to wave the "you have no life" stick

Just remember, if you think Ender had no life because he posts on the forum, that means that you have no life either. :P


" Studies have shown that people who say "Gameplay>Realism" are less likely to find girlfriends or lead a successful, rational life in the real world.

To see these studies for yourself, please click here."

~ Cy Marlayne

StonewallJ
Seraph Emeritus
(id: Conquistador34)
posted 10-10-06 02:13 PM EDT (US)     27 / 56       
He's not saying that.

Good post Adam (Y)

I've been looking to play as Sioux since they were announced and this makes it sound better but guess will have to wait and see how the Sioux strategies develop.


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[][][][][][][][][][] Stonewall J [][][][][][][][][][][]
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TarsTarkas
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 02:18 PM EDT (US)     28 / 56       

Quoted from Stonewall J:

He's not saying that.

I know, I was supporting Adam.

Quoted from Stonewall J:

I've been looking to play as Sioux since they were announced and this makes it sound better but guess will have to wait and see how the Sioux strategies develop.

Ive also wanted to use the Sioux - I believe that Sandy said something about the Sioux "rewarding players for thinking on their feet," and I really like that. Plus, fast units make me happy. Additionally, if I use them I will always remember how to spell their name


" Studies have shown that people who say "Gameplay>Realism" are less likely to find girlfriends or lead a successful, rational life in the real world.

To see these studies for yourself, please click here."

~ Cy Marlayne

[This message has been edited by TarsTarkas (edited 10-10-2006 @ 02:18 PM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 02:18 PM EDT (US)     29 / 56       

Quote:

Umm, how exactly are Pikes and Halbererds or Muskets in melee supposed to catch them? They don't catch even Ruyters with Coffee Trade, so how exactly is this supposed to happen? People MICRO their units, remember? In the real world (game) melee heavy infantry, aside from Rodeleros, rarely catch Dragoons/Ruyters in melee. And the Rider is just like them.

my pikes catch goons and ruyters all the time. as soon as there are enough units in the battle field to make all goons HnR in one group too ineffcient so they have to split into smaller groups, my pikes will catch them, because after all he needs 3 times as much micro as i do so he will scre it up 3 times easier.

then again i dont play against micro gods, i play against likes of walker and somme.

halbs gets speed upgrade right?

Quote:

It's not an archer. Why would it have a set up time? Even the Outlaw Rider (also ranged cav) doesn't have a set up time. It's a gunpowder unit, it'll hit and run like every other. This is just grasping at straws really.

Until we see it...

Quote:

it counters ranged HvyInf way better than it get contered back.

I am not too sure about this either.

2 vet jannisary = 564 HP, 50 ranged attack.

1 vet rifle rider = 256 hp, 93 ranged attack.

quite even if anything.


[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 10-10-2006 @ 02:19 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 03:21 PM EDT (US)     30 / 56       
(Hat's off to Adam)

Quoted from ultimitsu:

my pikes catch goons and ruyters all the time.

Mine aren't. Whenever I played Dutch or Spanish, my Dragoons and Ruyters have very rarely been caught in melee by HvyInf.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

as soon as there are enough units in the battle field to make all goons HnR in one group too ineffcient so they have to split into smaller groups, my pikes will catch them,

Ah, there's the culprit. You're trying to control multiple groups of ranged cavalry. That's where you're making mistakes, trying to do too much. Inefficiency be damned, I always continue to use just one group and target one unit.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

then again i dont play against micro gods, i play against likes of walker and somme.

What can I say ... people I play against on ESO, including Walker and Somme in the games I've had with them, are perfectly capable of keeping their ranged cavalry away from melee HvyInf.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

halbs gets speed upgrade right?

Only for Dutch, only with a card. They get 5.2 speed with that card, or slightly faster than Pikes. That's stil not nearly fast enough to be an effective counter to 6.8 speed ranged cavalry (+ whatever speed up the Sioux Warchief provides).

Quoted from ultimitsu:

Until we see it...

True, but evidence is more in favour of it not having, rather than having a set up time before firing.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

2 vet jannisary = 564 HP, 50 ranged attack.

1 vet rifle rider = 256 hp, 93 ranged attack.

Two Janissaries = 250 resources.
One Rifle Rider = 220 resources.

Not much difference, right? But that difference in attack (it's 97.5 ranged attack by the way) makes up for it.

Let's take a Musket though, since Jans are known for their massive HP and are thus the extreme example.

2 Veteran Muskets, 200 resources, 55.2 ranged attack, 300HP.
Vet RifleRider, 220 resources, 97.5 ranged attack, 256HP.

Much better.

2 Elite Tomahawks, 200 resoures, 47.5 ranged attack, 375HP.
Vet RifleRider, 220 resources, 97.5 ranged attack, 256HP.

Again, much better than the Jans comparison.

And this difference gets more and more pronounced as more units are added, because higher attack wins out against higher HP. Enemy units die faster, thus their overall damage output is reduces sooner. It's like putting Jans against Highlanders. Two Jans have more HP (and TWC, cost rought the same resources), but stil lose because of the Highlander's much higher damage.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 10-10-2006 @ 03:21 PM).]

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 10-10-06 03:48 PM EDT (US)     31 / 56       
Omg 1.5 ROF! There goes ultimitsu's Elmetis

It really sounds a bit extreme. I think some of their abilities were exagerated and it would be pretty boring if they could deny the use of Cannons for the Europeans. Comparing with the WW + Skirmisher combo, maybe Rifle Riders + Sioux LI will be the new strat in FF games, uh?

I didn't find the idea that it can kill 3 unit types very atractive. Dragoons would do a good job of them though. and since Cav Archers got a small improvement maybe Ottos and Russia will have good answers too. But what I really hated was the 6x Ships! It was bad enough to have Abus guns in the shore, now I'll have to worry about a crazy native horseman with a machine gun taking down my Frigates!


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
F1RE_FLY
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 04:00 PM EDT (US)     32 / 56       

Quote:

You know the only unit types that the Rifle Rider doesn't counter? Light infantry and ranged cavalry.

You know the only unit types that don't counter the Rifle Rider? Melee cav and artillery.

It goes both ways. Yes it will be a good unit. But it is also easily countered. Besides you have your oh-so-strong ronin + cannons, something needs to kill that combo.


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ESO: F1R╔_FLП
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Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 04:12 PM EDT (US)     33 / 56       

Quoted from F1RE_FLY:

You know the only unit types that don't counter the Rifle Rider? Melee cav and artillery.

Actually Heavy Infantry doesn't effectively counter them either. Indeed, it's the reverse.

Quoted from F1RE_FLY:

Besides you have your oh-so-strong ronin + cannons, something needs to kill that combo.

*grin*

Good point.

Quoted from Walker:

I think some of their abilities were exagerated and it would be pretty boring if they could deny the use of Cannons for the Europeans.

It's pretty insane, though, that if you account for the 1.5 rate of fire, the Rifle Riders do the same damage to artillery as Veteran Abus Guns. Talk about crazy ...

Quoted from Walker:

now I'll have to worry about a crazy native horseman with a machine gun taking down my Frigates!

ROFL. That's almost sig worthy.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
somme
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 04:17 PM EDT (US)     34 / 56       
It is *countered* by LI, HI, LC. It counters HC, HI and Artillery.

These expensive guys will die in three hits to a warwagon and will die almost as fast to dragoons. Against ranged cav it is nothing more than an overpriced uhlan.


ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 04:19 PM EDT (US)     35 / 56       

Quote:

Ah, there's the culprit. You're trying to control multiple groups of ranged cavalry. That's where you're making mistakes, trying to do too much. Inefficiency be damned, I always continue to use just one group and target one unit.

thats what stophon4 did too. and you know what? 40 ruyters were killing 1 pikes at a time and my hussars and falcs were taking down his colonie. he could not afford to not hit and run because merely 20 vet pikes would slaughter them.

oh and back in 1.06 when i first started playing dutch I was making ruyters too, in one of the games against Walker, while all my 30 ruyters to focus fire on 1 mameluke at a time, the rest of his army annialated my falcs and skirms. that was the last time I made ruyters.

the point is, Ranged cavalry are only effective if they hit and run, but there is a point where hit and run single unit at a time is very inefficient, both in terms of firepower and player's time. yet ranged cavalry can not afford to stand still. there is basically no good way to use them in mass.

regarding rilfer vs ranged HI, i actually never said HI in range beats them, but rather they dont get owned very badly.

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 04:22 PM EDT (US)     36 / 56       

Quote:

Cy: Instead of subtracting the 75% resistance of a falconet he just multiplied by .25.

Ohhh, I didn't know the actual resistance for the falconet. Thanks for clearing that up.


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somme
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 04:28 PM EDT (US)     37 / 56       

Quote:

Ranged cavalry are only effective if they hit and run

My WW would like to strongly disagree.

ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
A Dutchman
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 04:34 PM EDT (US)     38 / 56       
Nice post Ender_Ward! I really hope ES will make things balanced.

Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made -- Tibullus

[This message has been edited by A Dutchman (edited 10-10-2006 @ 04:35 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 05:22 PM EDT (US)     39 / 56       

Quoted from ultimitsu:

thats what stophon4 did too. and you know what? 40 ruyters were killing 1 pikes at a time and my hussars and falcs were taking down his colonie. he could not afford to not hit and run because merely 20 vet pikes would slaughter them.

You're using THAT game as example? Where Stophon admitted he was clueless as what to do with Dutch? I remember watching that game and wondering where Stophon's own Skirmishers and Falconets were, and if he was ever going to do something other than spam Ruyters.

You're using that single game, where grave strategic mistakes were made, to somehow invalidate my entire experience in using ranged cavalry to effectively fight off melee HvyInf? It's not gonna fly with me ...

And let's remember something else. War Wagons.
Dealing significantly less damage than Rifle Riders, they stil basically ignored melee HvyInf, just standing there and firing away with their crazy 42 attack, backed up by Skirmishers.
Why?
Because most of the melee infantry that was supposed to counter them DIED before ever making it in range. Or at best died after landing a couple of hits.
It's like sending Halberds at Skirmishers. Sure, Halberds are very dangerous on paper. But in reality, they never make it in range. Or if they do, they die after landing a couple of hits at best.

Now in the Rifle Rider we have a unit that:
* Takes less pop space than a War Wagon.
* Trains faster than a War Wagon.
* Deals more than twice the damage to artillery in 3 seconds per pop (97.5 vs 42).
* Costs practically the same per pop (110 vs 100 resources).
* Has a close HP per pop efficiency against melee damage (166HP vs 200HP).
* And deals TREMENDOUSLY more damage per pop in 3 seconds to HvyInf (48.75 vs 14).
* Deals slightly more damage per pop in 3 seconds to HvyCav (48.75 vs 42).

Indeed, the only advantages the War Wagon had, was higher efficiency in HP/pop against melee and ranged damage, and in it's range. Well by god the Rifle Rider more than makes up for those differences with huge advantage in damage against HvyInf, HvyCav and Artillery.

I can see Rifle Riders with Warbow support simply standing their ground, the same way War Wagons and Skirmishers stood their ground, and annihilated melee HvyInf.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

while all my 30 ruyters to focus fire on 1 mameluke at a time, the rest of his army annialated my falcs and skirms. that was the last time I made ruyters.

Why weren't you microing the rest of your army? And why in god's name did you find it necessary to hit and run MAMELUKES? It's not like they actually posed a real threat to your Ruyters ...

Terrible example.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

the point is, Ranged cavalry are only effective if they hit and run, but there is a point where hit and run single unit at a time is very inefficient, both in terms of firepower and player's time.

True, but few of my games get to that point. Especially when opponents are evenly matched, engagements even late into the game are kept fairly small, simply through attrition.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
SandyMan
VIP
(id: ES_Sandyman)
posted 10-10-06 05:57 PM EDT (US)     40 / 56       
well at least it's refreshing to see a post about the Sioux which isn't "they will get pwned by Ottos & Spanish" or the ilk.

The Rifle Rider is, frankly, the main Sioux reason to advance to 3rd age. It's a good combo with their other units, and intentionally so.

Incidentally, the reason for its fast ROF is because it is supposed to be using Winchester repeating carbines.

[This message has been edited by ES_Sandyman (edited 10-10-2006 @ 05:58 PM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 06:10 PM EDT (US)     41 / 56       

Quote:

Why weren't you microing the rest of your army? And why in god's name did you find it necessary to hit and run MAMELUKES? It's not like they actually posed a real threat to your Ruyters ...

the rest of my army was falcs.

he had vet muskteers and ronins, so i had to hit and run other wise ruyters would die.

in hit and run i lost all my falcs.

it was since that game that i stopped using ruyters. And found pike + falc is a much better combo.

===

Stophon4 made plenty of falcs and culverins IIRC, he just didnt make pikes and hussars, but surely as a 2250 he knew how to play RC + falc combo.

in all honesty i dont think stophon4 play that bad in that game, other than over boom and bad factory placements.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 10-10-2006 @ 06:14 PM).]

Nezahualcoyotl
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 06:12 PM EDT (US)     42 / 56       
I'm sure a few ronin should be able to handle those Suiox riders.
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 07:15 PM EDT (US)     43 / 56       
In the same way that the best way to counter BR and manchu is with ranged units I think the same will be true of the Rifle Riders. Their high melee resistance and HP will make it ideal for dancing with the RR and they will kill the HI very quickly with that bonus. If they do have instant fire (and they should... sandy said they are supposed to be carbines) it will make it very easy for them to hit and run.
ZinkOxide
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 08:03 PM EDT (US)     44 / 56       
The only decent counter I see is ranged LI. Which might still get hit and ran. Maybe Longbows? Remember Sioux have no falcs.

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blakeyboi14
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 08:18 PM EDT (US)     45 / 56       
I think the aztecs will be a good counter to the sioux because of the super infantry (that act like pikes), I can just imagine rodelero-esque pikemen...XD

-blake : )


Supporter of Gay Marriage.
Yobbo
Skirmisher
(id: Yobbo_ )
posted 10-10-06 08:18 PM EDT (US)     46 / 56       
I'm predicting the Sioux will have a weak economy, so it shouldn't be that bad.

If all things are relative then cannibalism is just a matter of taste...
My AoE3 Stats
drahnier
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 08:22 PM EDT (US)     47 / 56       
Imagine how much fun all the bitching on this forum will be the first weeks after the game is actually out and people start discovering and abusing the grossly overpowered units and functions. (whichever they may be)

Personally i'm used to losing to overpowered armies and playing a shitty civ, and losing in general.
If i get the expansion i'll most likely just keep using mainly the Germans.

I strongly dislike the stealth function though, among other things.

[This message has been edited by drahnier (edited 10-10-2006 @ 08:26 PM).]

The Anti Elmo
Skirmisher
(id: Led)
posted 10-10-06 09:26 PM EDT (US)     48 / 56       
I personally don't plan on visiting this forum. I shall stick with my Aztec, Dutch and Portuguese HCs thank you. Dutch and Ports I have beat the OP civs time and again, I can do it with the expansion too.

"My fort was razed by cougars."
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 10-10-06 10:50 PM EDT (US)     49 / 56       
Just liek Sandy said, they are available in AGE 3. I think in TWC most games will continue to be colonial wars as is present, but with a few changes.

THis unit is great, and would make any1 want to age to get them, but you could say that for any civ, who wouldnt wanna age for Lancers, or age for Curriasers?

Point is they have to have all these extra bonuses and new elements to make up for the lack of artilleries and Merc capabilities. I mean how are the natives supposed to compete without good units like this?

Sioux being "INSANE" is just premature, the game ISNT out, your making all of your comments based on unit stats on paper. You have absolutely no proof of any of your ranting,m so just wait till the game comes out.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 10-11-06 00:54 AM EDT (US)     50 / 56       

Quoted from ub3r:

Sioux being "INSANE" is just premature, the game ISNT out, your making all of your comments based on unit stats on paper. You have absolutely no proof of any of your ranting,m so just wait till the game comes out.

"Sioux sound insane."

VS

"Sioux are insane."

Do try to figure out the difference.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
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