You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

General Discussions
Moderated by Maffia, LordKivlov, JimXIX

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.84 replies
Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Upcoming TWC Patch - Spain nerfed!!1111!!!11
Bottom
Topic Subject:Upcoming TWC Patch - Spain nerfed!!1111!!!11
« Previous Page  1 2 3 4  Next Page »
Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 11-07-06 01:22 PM EDT (US)         
Ok, not really

Quote:

CLIENT FIXES

* Bonus from the Agents card reduced from +200% hitpoints to +50%.
* The 8 Spy home city cards for the British and Portuguese moved to the third age from the second age. If you have this card in your deck, the card will be moved to the third age in your deck as well.
* Cards that reduce the wood cost of buildings changed to prevent building cost from being zero or negative.
* Wallenstein contract now affects the new WarChiefs mercenary units.
* Queued shipments from your home city are now removed properly during revolution.
* British team animal fattening cards now work as described.
* Reduced longbow ranged attack by 2 and hand attack by 1.
* Fixed a possible exploit with shipments from team cards.
* Fixed several new cards that did not have a shipment cost.

NETWORK AND ESO FIXES

* Fixed a bug with stats uploading
* Fixed an issue that caused some users to be stuck on the “Connecting to ESO…” dialog box.
* Statistics window rendering fixes.

Here is the Link (for german noobs only!)

Thanks to Kastor for posting the news and warning me by MSN, so I could post it first. Now I'll read what it says


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.

[This message has been edited by Just a player (edited 11-07-2006 @ 01:41 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
MNBob
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 02:34 PM EDT (US)     26 / 84       
When they are done testing. They never give release dates just in case they end up being wrong. When they are ready to patch they'll probably announce it the day before they patch.

Abus Guns and Grenadiers ARE NOT ARTILLERY!
MNBob's AOE Page
Unthinking_Pain
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 02:45 PM EDT (US)     27 / 84       
I'm not entirely certain the longbow needed to be highlighted over all the other skirmisher-type infantry in the game. They all have issue because of the difficulty in using mass melee cavalry. It's why you can't counter cannon + massed skirmisher with just cavalry (unless you're a special cav civ)... even though you really *should* be able to. It's why going Hussar in Colonial sucks - too much food for not enough counter.

When is ES going to just realize that Skirmisher/bows need a damage penalty against Heavy Cavalry?

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 02:57 PM EDT (US)     28 / 84       
Sigh, some people will never be satisfied.

Longbows got nerfed, agents got nerfed, all the main bugs got fixed, all within 3 weeks of the game's release, but there will always be people whining what ever ES does I suppose. If we waited another 3 weeks for spain to be nerfed people would still whine.

If ES releases patches that take a long time but fix lots of balance issues (1.08) people whine that it takes too long say that they should release smaller more frequent patches. If ES release patches within a few weeks you get people complaining that omgomg111 it doesn't fix every single imbalance.

Just be grateful and have some respect ES are still supporting the twc community even after they got you to spend your money on them. They could so easily just say "screw them" and give no patches at all, and walk away with your $30, £20 or whatever.

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 02:58 PM EDT (US)     29 / 84       
So nothing about the animation fixes with native buildings vs. ships?

Lame.


₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪
Welcome to Life, your vacation from nothing.
₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪
StonewallJ
Seraph Emeritus
(id: Conquistador34)
posted 11-07-06 03:00 PM EDT (US)     30 / 84       
Well, it is the first patch, and with that I am happy with it. Fixed a lot of bugs and Agents.

Yes, Ports and Spain need tweaking, but this is a much needed patch and I do appreciate that it will be out


[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][] Stonewall J [][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
Beatnik Joe
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 03:10 PM EDT (US)     31 / 84       
Looks good! "Agents nerfed" is all I really needed to see, and there it is. I'm expecting Brits to drop in favor quite a bit with both longbows and agent-spamming taking a hit.

Quoted from Cy Marlane:

So nothing about the animation fixes with native buildings vs. ships?


I don't think I would have wanted to wait even an extra moment for a cosmetic change. When the balance is in a temporarily-broken state, that should take priority over everything, particularly surface stuff.

It's always possible to argue that more things needed to be done, but I wouldn't have wanted to wait on the critical changes. The agent problem was getting desperate. I think they did a good job on this one.

I do agree it's very interesting to see they now have a way of moving cards between ages. A question for the hardcore proto.xml-reading folks like Kastor, MNBob, or Walker -- what happens to decks that are already full of fortress cards and have "8 spies" decked in colonial? Is fortress age temporarily "stuffed" with an extra card? Does the deck self-destruct, uninstall the game, and remove your account from ESO? I'm tempted to put one together to see.


Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style

[This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 11-07-2006 @ 03:57 PM).]

Gato
Skirmisher
(id: GatoFedorento)
posted 11-07-06 03:11 PM EDT (US)     32 / 84       
I wonder why is Portugal always left behind

Long live early music.
MNBob
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 03:14 PM EDT (US)     33 / 84       

Quote:

I do agree it's very interesting to see they now have a way of moving cards between ages. A question for the hardcore proto.xml-reading folks like Kaster, MNBob, or Walker -- what happens to decks that are already full of fortress cards and have "8 spies" decked in colonial? Is fortress age temporarily "stuffed" with an extra card? Does the deck self-destruct, uninstall the game, and remove your account from ESO? I'm tempted to put one together to see.


I doubt they will fix it that way because of this potential problem. Instead the card will just get removed from all decks that currently contain it and the next time you add it to a deck it will be an age 3 card. Obviously currently full decks will then be 1 card short of full.

Abus Guns and Grenadiers ARE NOT ARTILLERY!
MNBob's AOE Page

[This message has been edited by MNBob (edited 11-07-2006 @ 03:15 PM).]

justiw
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 03:25 PM EDT (US)     34 / 84       
I think this is a good patch. People are thinking of it as a balance patch but it's more of a bug patch with a few balance related changes in i.

Agents were broken, now they are fixed (although maybe not balanced).

8 spies in colonial was a way too much value, bug fixed.

Everything but the longbow nerf was obviously a bug fix. Maybe the longbow nerf actually is a bug fix. Maybe they were supposed to get -2 and -1 attack from the get go, but somehow it slipped through the cracks.

3 weeks isn't enough time to really balance test, so we get bug fixes instead. I like it.


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
Beatnik Joe
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 03:35 PM EDT (US)     35 / 84       

Quoted from MNBob:

I doubt they will fix it that way because of this potential problem. Instead the card will just get removed from all decks that currently contain it and the next time you add it to a deck it will be an age 3 card. Obviously currently full decks will then be 1 card short of full.


Right, it really does seem that way, doesn't it? It's just that when I saw this quote from the patch Readme, it really seemed to mean that they'd just shift it around in-deck:

Quoted from Guys at ES:

If you have this card in your deck, the card will be moved to the third age in your deck as well.


But I'm with you, it seems like that'd be pretty amazing if it worked as described. I may have to create a dummy deck to try this out...

Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
MNBob
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 03:41 PM EDT (US)     36 / 84       
Doh. I guess I have to read closer. I don't know what will happen then.

Abus Guns and Grenadiers ARE NOT ARTILLERY!
MNBob's AOE Page
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 03:46 PM EDT (US)     37 / 84       
Everything is unargueably fair except the longbow nerf. Longbows are so ****ing weak early game, as are Britains. Britain is now even WEAKER early game? Sorry but WTF were you thinking ES. At least buff their incredibly crappy HP if your going to kick the **** out of a "UU".

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 11-07-06 03:49 PM EDT (US)     38 / 84       
The good n' old Brtnboarder...

ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
Uncle_Joe
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 04:07 PM EDT (US)     39 / 84       
My concerns with the Lbow nerf are the timing and the manner in which they picked.

1) Timing: In AoE3, Lbows DEFINATELY could have used a nerf. But in TWC, Euro Civs MUST build LI to counter the Native units. You cant even begin to think about building HI to fight Natives with their insane infantry-killing bowmen. And when fighting the Sioux, you must build LI to protect your cannon from Rifle Riders (even though they cant truly 'protect' them). By nerfing their overall damage output, the Brits are left with no cost effective unit to use vs the natives. Cetans can beat almost EVERY Brit unit for cost except Cannon and LBows. Now Lbows are going to lose that distinction as well and Cannon are impossible to keep alive for long vs determined RRs.

Also on the TWC front, a few HI gets heavily boosted. Halbs are better in general, and Dutch Halbs are a serious pain. Dopples just got a large boost as well. This means that having a viable anti-HI unit is necessary. The Brits are the only Civ without a direct HI counter (no Skirms, no standard unit with bonus vs HI). So reducing their only unit which could counter HI isnt the best idea IMO.

2) The manner of the nerf: I think LBows are far too good vs Cav (as are ALL LI units). To me, the 'nerf' should have been to give LBows (and preferably all LI) a .75 or .5 penalty vs melee Cav. That way they would lose hard to their supposed counter, unlike now where they can still trade fairly efficiently when massed.

But as usual, ES is balancing previous problems away while failing to see what the problems are NOW.

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 11-07-06 04:10 PM EDT (US)     40 / 84       

Quote:

1) Timing: In AoE3, Lbows DEFINATELY could have used a nerf. But in TWC, Euro Civs MUST build LI to counter the Native units. You cant even begin to think about building HI to fight Natives with their insane infantry-killing bowmen. And when fighting the Sioux, you must build LI to protect your cannon from Rifle Riders (even though they cant truly 'protect' them). By nerfing their overall damage output, the Brits are left with no cost effective unit to use vs the natives. Cetans can beat almost EVERY Brit unit for cost except Cannon and LBows. Now Lbows are going to lose that distinction as well and Cannon are impossible to keep alive for long vs determined RRs.

Lbows still do about twice as much damage as Skirmishers vs LI and RC. Besides, they're cheaper.


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
Uncle_Joe
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 04:23 PM EDT (US)     41 / 84       

Quote:

Lbows still do about twice as much damage as Skirmishers vs LI and RC. Besides, they're cheaper

Absolutely. But there is a reason they were 'better' overall...Brits have no 'true' heavy Cav (ala Lancer or Cuir) AND no 'true' HI counter.

In a combined arms fight, the Brits cannot kill off opposing Cav-killing HI with the same efficiency as Civs with Skirms/Strelets/Abus/Native Bowmen. So opposing Civs can more easily employ Cav against the LBows since they all can annihilate Pikers/Muskets easier than the Brits can do the same in return.

In exchange, the LBow was better vs non-HI targets due to the faster RoF. The problem came in because LBows (like all LI) were too good against CAV. So, if they had nerfed their damage vs Cav instead of vs EVERYTHING, they would have been fine...Vs Brits, you'd used your own (more efficient) HI counters to kill off the Brit anti-Cav and then use the Cav to massacre the LBows.

Personally, I think the Cetans are just ridiculous in general, and especially for a Civ that is supposedly a CAV civ. But even here, if the Cetans were given the same proposed nerf (ie, .5 or .75 vs Cav), they would be fine. Its the same thing with LBows...the nerf was a good idea. The manner in which it was done was a POOR idea.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 04:32 PM EDT (US)     42 / 84       
Such a strange way to nerf Longbows. I would've gone with a damage penalty against heavy cavalry ... but everything else looks quite good, the Agent fix in particular.


P.S.
Hmm, Cetans are now better than Longbows in every way except for range. And twice as good in fighting heavy infantry. But, don't worry guys, Cetans too will get nerfed ... eventually ... about 6 months from today.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
MNBob
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 04:37 PM EDT (US)     43 / 84       
@Ender_Ward:
I agree. I'm not sure I even understand the reason for the nerf because it does not address the problem of massed longbows vs melee cavalry. Sure it makes them worse but massed longbows with a little anti-cav support will still be strong.

Instead this change makes them worse against all units. Were longbows too good vs other (aoe3) light infantry? That's the only thing I can think ES was trying to address.


Abus Guns and Grenadiers ARE NOT ARTILLERY!
MNBob's AOE Page
Sundalo50
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 04:43 PM EDT (US)     44 / 84       

Quote:

My concerns with the Lbow nerf are the timing and the manner in which they picked.

1) Timing: In AoE3, Lbows DEFINATELY could have used a nerf. But in TWC, Euro Civs MUST build LI to counter the Native units. You cant even begin to think about building HI to fight Natives with their insane infantry-killing bowmen. And when fighting the Sioux, you must build LI to protect your cannon from Rifle Riders (even though they cant truly 'protect' them). By nerfing their overall damage output, the Brits are left with no cost effective unit to use vs the natives. Cetans can beat almost EVERY Brit unit for cost except Cannon and LBows. Now Lbows are going to lose that distinction as well and Cannon are impossible to keep alive for long vs determined RRs.

Also on the TWC front, a few HI gets heavily boosted. Halbs are better in general, and Dutch Halbs are a serious pain. Dopples just got a large boost as well. This means that having a viable anti-HI unit is necessary. The Brits are the only Civ without a direct HI counter (no Skirms, no standard unit with bonus vs HI). So reducing their only unit which could counter HI isnt the best idea IMO.

2) The manner of the nerf: I think LBows are far too good vs Cav (as are ALL LI units). To me, the 'nerf' should have been to give LBows (and preferably all LI) a .75 or .5 penalty vs melee Cav. That way they would lose hard to their supposed counter, unlike now where they can still trade fairly efficiently when massed.

But as usual, ES is balancing previous problems away while failing to see what the problems are NOW.

Quote:

Absolutely. But there is a reason they were 'better' overall...Brits have no 'true' heavy Cav (ala Lancer or Cuir) AND no 'true' HI counter.

In a combined arms fight, the Brits cannot kill off opposing Cav-killing HI with the same efficiency as Civs with Skirms/Strelets/Abus/Native Bowmen. So opposing Civs can more easily employ Cav against the LBows since they all can annihilate Pikers/Muskets easier than the Brits can do the same in return.

In exchange, the LBow was better vs non-HI targets due to the faster RoF. The problem came in because LBows (like all LI) were too good against CAV. So, if they had nerfed their damage vs Cav instead of vs EVERYTHING, they would have been fine...Vs Brits, you'd used your own (more efficient) HI counters to kill off the Brit anti-Cav and then use the Cav to massacre the LBows.

Personally, I think the Cetans are just ridiculous in general, and especially for a Civ that is supposedly a CAV civ. But even here, if the Cetans were given the same proposed nerf (ie, .5 or .75 vs Cav), they would be fine. Its the same thing with LBows...the nerf was a good idea. The manner in which it was done was a POOR idea.

Boohoo... cry me a river. Brits have to actually make another unit other then longbows. Brits have Hussars.... and Royal guard hussars at that. Do just like every other european civ does, save ottos when dealing with light infantry.... make cav!!!! or maybe even muskets FFS!!!!

I am very happy with this patch, but would like to see spain nerfed a little bit. It gets really boring playing a spanish player in 1v1.... you already know how the game is going to be played. FF spam shipments.... make a few skirms...

[This message has been edited by Sundalo50 (edited 11-07-2006 @ 04:45 PM).]

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 05:00 PM EDT (US)     45 / 84       

Quote:

Everything is unargueably fair except the longbow nerf. Longbows are so ****ing weak early game, as are Britains. Britain is now even WEAKER early game? Sorry but WTF were you thinking ES. At least buff their incredibly crappy HP if your going to kick the **** out of a "UU".

Rofl. Yes I'm sure brits will be completely weak now that the longbow may actually lose to their counters marginally.

Longbow UP!

Uncle_Joe
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 05:02 PM EDT (US)     46 / 84       
FWIW, I played Brit quite often in AoE3 (team and 1v1) and rarely built LBows at all (I relied on massed econ and Muskets instead).

In TWC, the native civs pretty much ensure that you cant rely on HI for most of the game. Knowing that, why single out Brits now to nerf their LI? ALL LI need a nerf vs Cav.

The Lbow nerf itself it not a bad thing. But it should have been timed with a general rebalancing of OP things in TWC. Outside of Agents (which are thankfully being fixed), were Brits winning some inordinate number of games with LBows? I dont recall seeing many Brit players in the top levels of the ELO ladders. Dont you think that if LBows were really that OP that there would be more Brit player at the top? The only Brit player in the top 20 is Knee and he obviously got there abusing Agents, not LBows.

Compare that to say, Sioux, where many people think Cetans ARE OP (after all, they are LBows who trade a bit of range for x2 vs HI). With the Siege Dance, the Cetans ALSO have the potential to wreck buildings, something LBows never get. 7 of the top 10 players are playing Sioux. Coincidence? I dont think so.

So why pick now to put a nerf to a unit that has been this way for quite some time while ignoring a unit that is very similar, but better? Besides, as I said above, I'd be ALL FOR nerfing LBows (and all LI) vs Cav. That would enable players to slaughter LBows with a smaller number of Cav and still solve the problem but without screwing around with other interactions.

hells666beast
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 05:13 PM EDT (US)     47 / 84       
I think we need to wait until it released. Only then we can really know instead of speculation

Der Wahnsinn ist nur eine schmale Brücke die Ufer sind Vernunft und Trieb ich steig dir nach das Sonnenlicht den Geist verwirrt ein blindes Kind das vorwärts kriecht
weil es seine Mutter riecht
Ich finde dich

[This message has been edited by hells666beast (edited 11-07-2006 @ 05:16 PM).]

Wabbitkiller
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 05:40 PM EDT (US)     48 / 84       
The most important thing in this patch was the fix to agents. While the rest of the fixes are nice, they absolutely NEEDED to fix agents, so I am happy.

It's about TIME they fixed Lbows as well. Anytime a unit can SLAUGHTER its direct counter it's broken, and Lbows were broken for a long time.

KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 05:53 PM EDT (US)     49 / 84       

Quote:

Everything is unargueably fair except the longbow nerf. Longbows are so ****ing weak early game, as are Britains. Britain is now even WEAKER early game? Sorry but WTF were you thinking ES. At least buff their incredibly crappy HP if your going to kick the **** out of a "UU".

Talk about biased....your favorite civ is brits...


Im surprised at the lb nerf...when i first read it i thought it said range and i was like WOOT!

Agents was very good and needed. Most other fixed were bugs. Stop complaining people.


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
Makita
Skirmisher
posted 11-07-06 06:10 PM EDT (US)     50 / 84       
Does ES even acknowledge the basic melee cav weakness?

Doesn't it seems like a handful of former balance changes could have been better addressed by adjusting cav bonuses? Now add the LB nerf to that list.

I can only conclude that ES looks at hussars on paper and sees that they should dominate archer/skirmisher units. Perhaps they even run small test battles on a blank map.

I'll still take the current LB nerf because it should help, but as SO MANY have pointed out, it doesn't address the real issue.

BTW, the +10 HP hussar boost was good, but there really needs to be a bonus system in place for the Cav/LI encounters.

« Previous Page  1 2 3 4  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires III Heaven | HeavenGames