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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » If you wanted to make Cavalry counter Infantry(Old LI) better how would you do it?
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Topic Subject:If you wanted to make Cavalry counter Infantry(Old LI) better how would you do it?
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justiw
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 02:19 PM EDT (US)         
Post some creative answers please. I don't care if you think Infantry is OP, UP or balanced. Please don't discuss that here. Thanks.

Popular Proposed Idea:
Give Infantry *0.7 to scout cavalry (hussar, cossack, coyote, uhlan, axe rider, kanye)

Other Ideas:
1. Increase the minimum range of Infantry range attack to something like 4 or 5 and decrease their melee attack by 10-20%. This will force them into melee mode more easily. This might spark interest to boost their ranged attack in some cases.

2. Decrease the time that cav stop moving when they attack. Currently they pause for something like .5 seconds every time they attack. They would be more effective if they could move around sooner especially with the pathfinding issues.

3. Increase the range resistance of scout cav while boosting the multiplier for ranged cav.



Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
AuthorReplies:
mentork
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 02:51 PM EDT (US)     1 / 29       
I'd like to give most melee calv *big* ranged resistance. Have anti calv get bigger multipliers to counter it, that sounds grand to me.

[This message has been edited by mentork (edited 12-14-2006 @ 02:53 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 02:55 PM EDT (US)     2 / 29       
A 0.5x damage penalty against heavy cavalry to all light infantry that don't already have it.

Yes and I mean ALL. And yes I no longer care that this would boost Cuirassiers, Spahi and Lancers. Melee cavalry should slaughter light infantry the same way heavy infantry slaughters melee cavalry. No use pussyfooting around. They should be HARD counters.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
justiw
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 03:42 PM EDT (US)     3 / 29       
Good point about the hard counters. If every unit and every civ has access to hard counters then there should be balance. No one unit would be too strong in mass becuase a few counter units would equalize them. This would promote diverse armys and micro.

Do you think abus guns need an additional nerf?


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!

[This message has been edited by justiw (edited 12-14-2006 @ 03:45 PM).]

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 12-14-06 03:49 PM EDT (US)     4 / 29       
I'd rather just see the cavalry that need it, such as Kanyas and Uhlans, get boosted.

ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
justiw
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 03:51 PM EDT (US)     5 / 29       
Another idea:

Reduce Infantry HP significantly, while boosting their range resistance to make up for it. Although this might make Abus OP you could rebalance their damage. This is like making all Infantry similar to the way cassadores are currently.


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 12-14-06 04:14 PM EDT (US)     6 / 29       
Personally, I think hussars/axe riders counter LI* quite nicely as it is (except for MASS archers such as cetans/longbows). It seems to me that the likes of uhlans/kanyas should just be boosted.
MNBob
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 04:21 PM EDT (US)     7 / 29       
I guess it depends on the definition of hard counter. Right now hard counters are really only those units that have a damage bonus vs the units they counter.

Skirmishers are a hard counter vs Heavy Infantry.
Crossbowmen are not a hard counter vs Heavy Infantry.

The following units have damage penalties: (ignoring penalties vs villagers)
Abus Guns (0.5 vs Heavy Cavalry and Coyotemen, 0.75 vs Ranged Cavalry and Eagle Knights)
Grenadiers (0.5 vs Cavalry, Coytemen and Eagle Knights)
And then some Artillery. That's it. (Side question: Why do Organ Guns have a penalty vs Cav but Falconets don't?)

Thus you can easily see that a damage penalty on the countered unit is not as common as a damage bonus for the countering unit.

Of course, we can't (easily) give cavalry a bonus vs light infantry since that classification no longer exists.



Abus Guns and Grenadiers ARE NOT ARTILLERY!
MNBob's AOE Page
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 04:24 PM EDT (US)     8 / 29       
Fixing trample would help, and giving them as addition a 0.75x multiplier

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Sargon II
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 05:08 PM EDT (US)     9 / 29       

Quote:

Skirmishers are a hard counter vs Heavy Infantry.
Crossbowmen are not a hard counter vs Heavy Infantry.

I suppose you could counter that by making xbows a harder counter early game but late game, when the skirms are upgraded, being a much more effective counter.


Veni, Vidi, Castratavi Illegitimos.
Makita
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 06:02 PM EDT (US)     10 / 29       
Let's look at exactly why melee cav don't counter LI.

It's because they can't get to them. And it isn't only poor pathing decisions. It's also the ridiculous slow-down.

A common early-game scenario is that 5-8 hussars must take out 10 LI that are protected by 5 HI.

To attempt to charge through the HI is suicidal - and should be. So, you try to quickly sweep around. With minimal movement, your opponent makes contact with your nearest cav unit. The whole group slows down, ensuring that the HI reach the back of the LI before you do. What now? You still haven't gotten to the LI. Might as well have charged through the front after all.

Notice that this takes micro into account. If you don't micro, it's worse; who knows where your cav will decide to go.

I'm not sure that changing bonuses addresses these issues. Well, I guess you at least wouldn't be getting worked by the LI while the HI are busy toying with you.

[This message has been edited by Makita (edited 12-14-2006 @ 06:05 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 06:07 PM EDT (US)     11 / 29       
5.2 Speed, 25-32 attack Halberds also don't have a damage bonus against Abus Guns, yet they most definitely behave as a "hard" counter.

I consider a unit to be a hard counter when it's highly effective against another unit. Not kinda sorta almost breaks even if the moon and the sun align properly, like Colonial melee cavalry and light infantry.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 08:10 PM EDT (US)     12 / 29       
here is an idea, but it cant happen with simple proto file change.

when you have a group of unit X selected, and you clicked on a enemy unit Y, unit X will attack any unit Y that it comes across, not that clicked unit Y. this should only work for melee attack, and should only work with in a certain radius.

one of the most unrealistic things about AOE3 in general is that you can not command units to attack mass targets. the fact that you cant realistically micro 20 hussars individually so they will all hit their own longbows, therefore they all run around the longbows while taking hits is what makes them inadequate.

the reason i feel this is the only way is that i feel the problem is complicated. most of suggestions here have some flaws.

1, introduce reduced multiplier in LI - it doesnt help when part of the problem is MC dont kill LI faster enough, they die faster to HI. also some LI will be even more useless - xbows.

2, increased minimal range for LI - it makes they weaker against HI and RC too, fast HI already kill some of the weaker LI

3, increased resistance in all MC - i like this suggestion the best, but that still doesnt help the fact that MC still dont kill LI fast enough, and this means there needs to be a change in tower/TC multipilers too, and they have to differetiate MC to RC. it also weakens Muskts and Jans needlessly.

xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 12-14-06 08:37 PM EDT (US)     13 / 29       

Quote:

A common early-game scenario is that 5-8 hussars must take out 10 LI that are protected by 5 HI.

To attempt to charge through the HI is suicidal - and should be. So, you try to quickly sweep around. With minimal movement, your opponent makes contact with your nearest cav unit. The whole group slows down, ensuring that the HI reach the back of the LI before you do. What now? You still haven't gotten to the LI. Might as well have charged through the front after all.

Or your 5 LI units kill his 5 HI units, then cav charges in and pwns his LI units, and you win the battle.

xcadet
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 09:04 PM EDT (US)     14 / 29       
no this is pissing me off, i was playing against a sioux player, well i shouldnt call him sioux, maybe just call them cetan spam now, he probalby had 40 cetans and 10 war clubs and i had probably about 20 hussars and 15 skirms, i took out his war clubs pretty easily but dear jesus its like i didnt even have hussars, they died so quickly it wasnt even funny

"to do anything but your best would be to sacrafice the gift"

[This message has been edited by xcadet (edited 12-16-2006 @ 07:31 PM).]

Makita
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 09:24 PM EDT (US)     15 / 29       

Quoted from xMatt the Greatx:

Or your 5 LI units kill his 5 HI units, then cav charges in and pwns his LI units, and you win the battle.

Yeah, I figured this would come up. I took it out of my original post becauase it was getting too long.

The problem is it doesn't work. I don't know exactly why, but I'm sure a lot of people will agree that it doesn't work in practice.

HI kill cav so fast that you have to wait until your LI have killed most of their HI before you bring in your hussars. That takes the cav out of the picture and that means it's 5 HI and 10 LI against your 5 LI.

[This message has been edited by Makita (edited 12-14-2006 @ 09:26 PM).]

xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 12-14-06 11:22 PM EDT (US)     16 / 29       
Which is why you dont send the cav in until you've cleared the HI shield. Your LI are ranged, but his HI have to actually engage your cav to get their bonus, so you should always be able to kill his HI screen, even if it costs you all of your LI. Now is the time to send in your cavalry, when he is left with nothing but LI.
Makita
Skirmisher
posted 12-15-06 00:21 AM EDT (US)     17 / 29       
^^^
That's what I said...except you don't get to kill his HI because they have moved to the back of the pack and his 10 LI are now killing your 5 LI.

@ultimitsu,
That would definately help pathfinding. But, in addition, I think "slow down" should only affect the cav units actually getting hit. That way, a flanking maneuver would work, but not a direct charge into a HI shield. You know...like actual battlefield tactics.

Alpedar
Skirmisher
posted 12-15-06 06:56 AM EDT (US)     18 / 29       
By LI i mean LightInfantry what common people undesrstand it (Skirmishers, archers, ...).

Chnges that would need programming to happen (so will not happen, i'm afraid):
0) Reworking pathfinding
1) Homeworld - like targeting
2) Canceling "formation"

Changes that i hope can be made without programing:
3) reduce footprint of cav = less bumping
4) increase "soft" limit for their distance in formation (so they would prefare to be further from each other = more space for minor individual manuevers = less bumping
5) higher ranged resistance/LI get penealty aginst them

Explanation (where needed):
1) In Homeworld, you can select multiple of your ships, press ctrl and drag box. This way you declare ALL enemy units in this box target for ALL your selected units, but they will choose target acording what is their role (fighters go after bombers, bombers after capital ships, covets after strike crafts (fighters/bombers), frigates after corvets ...)

If this was used, you could select group of melee cavalry and drag box around enemy formation. Horses would engage everithing what they counter, then what does not counter them and then their counters, while counters of horses' counters would engage horses' counters.

2) After using this, all your selected units would behave like they recieved same order as other, but indenpendently (so if one was slowd down, he would not slow down rest, if some are behind, rest would NOT run to them to form with them)

somme
Skirmisher
posted 12-15-06 07:40 AM EDT (US)     19 / 29       
Oh yeah, a tip from the experts, when using your cavalry, use attack move. This means they attack their closest unit.

And yeah, they need to be a hard counter. 0.5 bonus sounds good...


ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 12-15-06 08:48 AM EDT (US)     20 / 29       
Attack move with Cavalry (something I use pretty much all the time with most units except artillery, for which it doesn't work) stil results in the same pathfinding issues. One stil has to micro alot to improve efficiency, after using attack move.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
MNBob
Skirmisher
posted 12-15-06 11:15 AM EDT (US)     21 / 29       
Attack move also doesn't help in the typical scenario of mixed LI and HI because the nearest enemy just might be a HI unit.

And as to the scenario involving a handful of units, I really don't think that's the problem. Yes the LI/HI has micro advantage over LI/HC because of cav pathfinding and slowdown issues. But it's still possible to win with very good micro. But the problem becomes worse with larger armies which is why the problem is magnified in team games.

Cav pathfinding will never change.
The footprint size of cav could be changed but I don't expect that.
I'd really like to see the "hit one in melee and all slowdown" problem changed.
I'd also like to see LI given a the much asked for decimal penalty vs light infantry.
If ES would be willing to re-categorize the units, I'd also like to see some heavy cav units instead given a light cav unit type and then have their ranged resistance increased. To compensate, ranged cavalry would need a higher bonus against these light cav.


Abus Guns and Grenadiers ARE NOT ARTILLERY!
MNBob's AOE Page
Makita
Skirmisher
posted 12-15-06 12:06 PM EDT (US)     22 / 29       

Quoted from MNBob:

The footprint size of cav could be changed but I don't expect that.
I'd really like to see the "hit one in melee and all slowdown" problem changed.


Are these things that you could change in your fan patch, or are they engine-related?

Quoted from MNBob:

And as to the scenario involving a handful of units, I really don't think that's the problem. Yes the LI/HI has micro advantage over LI/HC because of cav pathfinding and slowdown issues. But it's still possible to win with very good micro. But the problem becomes worse with larger armies which is why the problem is magnified in team games.

The problem itself does become worse with larger armies, but it is just as important in the very early game. Early on, hussars are an enormous investment. (Cost, pop, train time, need for a stable). In an even match, losing even 5 hussars without substantial gain is crippling.

And you're right, it can be done (somewhat) with very good micro. But, 1) If your micro is that much better than your opponent, you should be playing someone a little better, and 2) Beginners and casual players also need a way to counter LI with cav.

MNBob
Skirmisher
posted 12-15-06 12:49 PM EDT (US)     23 / 29       
Cav size can be changed. Others proved that when they modified War Wagons so they didn't hide cannons (if I remember the reason correctly).

I don't think the slowdown effect is data file related. If not, it can't be changed.


Abus Guns and Grenadiers ARE NOT ARTILLERY!
MNBob's AOE Page
justiw
Skirmisher
posted 12-15-06 02:06 PM EDT (US)     24 / 29       
I had another idea:

Affect the accuracy of ranged Infantry attacks based on the speed and unit type of the target. They would have 100% current accuracy against HI and Ranged Cav since they are supposed to counter those units. They would have lower accuracy to faster units like melee cavalry. The unit with the highest speed would be missed more frequently, up to 50%, and they would have about a 80-90% accuracy to slow units like artillery.

This will boost all cavalry significantly since they are fast. It will boost coyotes, cuirs, lancers, spahi less than the other cavs because they are a little slower. Artillery would get a slight boost, but not much. And other Infantry vs Infantry battles would be affected because the faster units (cassadores) would do better against the slower units (longbows).

I still like the universal *.5 multiplier best, but new ideas are always welcome. I also like ideas that fix trample mode.


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 12-15-06 05:54 PM EDT (US)     25 / 29       
If going with a multiplier, I would only give it to some LI*. I think most people would agree that cav beats skirms/cassadores quite well, and xbows also. At most, a x.7 mult would be necessary for them. However, high base damage, high ROF units like longbows and cetan bows should receive a higher reduction, maybe x.6 or so. Of course, this only applies if going the decimal mult. route.
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