You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

General Discussions
Moderated by Maffia, LordKivlov, JimXIX

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.117 replies
Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » The real measuring stick - civ gameplay capacities/abilities:
Bottom
Topic Subject:The real measuring stick - civ gameplay capacities/abilities:
« Previous Page  1 2 3 4 5  Next Page »
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-24-07 10:23 PM EDT (US)         
I started thinking, and it dawned on me that most of the "problem" civs are those that can do too much, too well, and not those with one particular overpowered unit or three. Those are still factors, but not primary ones. Instead of speaking in generalities, let me simply show you what I mean by looking at each civ specifically.

(Note #1: maximum economic capacity means what is the absolute maximum this civ can expand it's economy to by using gather rate techs and cards)

(Note #2: economic growth speed refers to how quickly a civ can expand it's economy both early and mid game)

(Note #3: I should've specified this right away, "mid game" military strength is actually everything from about 9 minutes in till the rest of the game, including going way into Imperial)

~~~British~~~
Boom: strong
Economic early growth speed potential: very fast
Economic mid game growth speed potential: moderate
Rush: weak
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: weak
Military strength early game: average
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Spanish~~~
Boom: moderate
Economic early growth speed potential: fast
Economic mid game growth speed potential: moderate
Rush: strong
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: extremely strong
Military strength early game: extremely strong
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Germans~~~
Boom: moderate
Economic early growth speed potential: moderate
Economic mid game growth speed potential: moderate
Rush: weak
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: moderate
Military strength early game: weak
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Ottomans~~~
Boom: weak
Economic early growth speed potential: very fast
Economic mid game growth speed potential: weak
Rush: very strong
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: strong
Military strength early game: strong
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: strong


~~~Sioux~~~
Boom: moderate
Economic early growth speed potential: moderate
Economic mid game growth speed potential: weak
Rush: strong
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: strong
Military strength early game: very strong
Military strength mid game: very strong
Max economic capacity: weak


~~~Russians~~~
Boom: strong
Economic early growth speed potential: moderate
Economic mid game growth speed potential: strong
Rush: moderate
Turtle: moderate
Fast Fortress: weak
Military strength early game: average
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~French~~~
Boom: strong
Economic early growth speed potential: moderate
Economic mid game growth speed potential: very strong
Rush: moderate
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: strong
Military strength early game: average
Military strength mid game: extreme
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Dutch~~~
Boom: strong
Economic early growth speed potential: extreme
Economic mid game growth speed potential: moderate
Rush: moderate
Turtle: extreme
Fast Fortress: strong
Military strength early game: strong
Military strength mid game: very strong
Max economic capacity: weak


~~~Aztec~~~
Boom: very strong
Economic early growth speed potential: fast
Economic mid game growth speed potential: extreme
Rush: moderate
Turtle: strong
Fast Fortress: moderate
Military strength early game: average
Military strength mid game: extreme
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Portuguese~~~
Boom: strong
Economic early growth speed potential: slow
Economic mid game growth speed potential: very fast
Rush: weak
Turtle: strong
Fast Fortress: moderate
Military strength early game: weak
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Iroquois~~~
Boom: extreme
Economic early growth speed potential: moderate
Economic mid game growth speed potential: extreme
Rush: strong
Turtle: extreme
Fast Fortress: extremely strong
Military strength early game: strong
Military strength mid game: extreme
Max economic capacity: very strong


Now, you might say that these evaluations are highly subjective, and they are, since they are based on how I view those civs. If you agree with my assessments, see if you can notice the problems. See if you can correlate how the civs with few or no weaknesses, and/or too many strengths perform overall.
See if you agree that perhaps ES should be thinking in broader terms. Instead of giving a small cut or boost to a unit here and there, they should be evaluating civ abilities, capacities as a whole. By taking a holistic approach to civ balance, they can achieve better results. Not just extend the never ending game of musical civs.

By which I mean, identify what are the important abilities that are required for a civ to be competitive in TWC. Make sure that no civ is left behind so completely as to have no chance, in that ability. Identify what combination of abilities leads to too much strength. Identify which combination leads to too much strength too quickly. Etc. Address those major issues.

For example, say you've identified that the Spanish combination of early economy growth speed, their early game military strength and their FF strength combine into a force that most other civs have a very hard time dealing with at the time it comes together. Evaluate how, perhaps, if you toned down any one of these three abilities, what kind of effect it would have on the overall matchup between Spanish and other civs.

By looking at these civ abilities, you can note confluences that lead to too much advantage. It isn't hard to notice how a civ that is very strong at too many things too early is going to dominate so much, early on, that it'll never actually give other civs the opportunity to get to the point where they have some strengths.

At the same time, if you see a civ that has too many very strong abilities/capacities mid/later game, would become impossible to compete with if not defeated early on. It would follow then, that the matchup would be simply impossible for a civ that doesn't have that many (or any) strengths early on to capitalize upon, and hopefully defeat the late game monster.

Anyway, enough rambling. Hopefully you get my drift.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 04-25-2007 @ 01:56 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 04-26-07 01:04 AM EDT (US)     51 / 117       
GB really don't help win a fight against ERKs anyway, so its not that smart to make them against ERKs.

+----------+
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT |
| FEED THE |
| TROLLS |
+----------+
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 04-26-07 01:48 AM EDT (US)     52 / 117       
If they want to attack several gbs with eagle runners, they will be vunerable to HI. (ERK arent that good vs cannons)

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

justiw
Skirmisher
posted 04-26-07 08:57 AM EDT (US)     53 / 117       
I think you're underestimating the Aztec turtle. It can be outright insane with the Town Dance, Improved Buildings and the stronger Warhut/Noblehut politician used. I just don't see Aztec players do this all that often, mostly because they don't have a travois dance and must still have access to large quantities of wood. That's why their turtle isn't as ridiculously overpowered as the Iroquois/Dutch ones, but still very, very strong.

You're right, I did underestimate it in my rating. Aztec turtle is definitely better than average (strong seems about right). The only thing is, their turtle isn't really an early game advantage, more of a mid to late game advantage. It takes forever to get the 2 cards, several WH, the politician (+10% doesn't really cut it from the first poli IMO), and enough WP to make the dance worthwhile. The wood shortage really kills the aztec turtle in the early game. The rush followed by a turtle/boom is by far the better way to go than pure turtle. Their late game turtle is quite rediculous though.

I also think people overrate the aztec FF. I've never seen any game winning capacity from an aztec FF. If you win, it always seems to me that you just got lucky. So an increase in turtle rating and a decrease in FF rating results in the same total score.


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
Lc_noob
Skirmisher
posted 04-26-07 09:23 AM EDT (US)     54 / 117       
Humm russian turtle.... I think sevastopol usage change the game there. I would put there turtle up there with the dutch. May be not extreme but I would say strong.

I mean why instant strelet when you can instant Blockhouse or instant fort ? Plus the fact that they got the multipurpose raiding cav in their arsenal helping them turtle while having an excellent raiding capacity, I would rate their turtle higher. And once the musket fort building thing is played, GG. Ok maybe not GG but try being surrounded by 3 instant builded fort, faster than 5 mortar can bombard them. Combine this with one of the greatest fortress boom.....

I feel this game is becoming a turtlers delight.....

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-26-07 10:12 AM EDT (US)     55 / 117       
Jans kill their counters. (macehualtin)

Myth.

Jans kill their counters. (jaguars)

In small numbers, yes (hit and run). Large numbers, no.

Abus kill their counters. (Cannons)

As do other units in the game, such as Lancers, Arrow Knights, Rifle Riders and more.

Great Bombards kill their Counters. (Arrow Knights)

Just as Falconets kill Abus Guns.

will be an honest Aztec player and admit that ottos specifically don't have a very good ERK counter in fortress since the abus nerf. Any other civ is fine.

"Fine"? LOL. Must be some weird definition of "fine".

Macehualtin don't counter jans,

They do, and quite well. It's like saying Strelets don't counter Janissaries. Guess what, Macehualtin actually have a higher damage output per second against heavy infantry than Strelets.
Like I said, Macehualtin not countering heavy infantry is a myth.

coyotes are easily killed and lack upgrades

Janissaries do a pathetic 22.5 damage to Coyote Runners. They, Janeys and Puma Spearmen are some of the greatest threats Abus Guns can face in Colonial. Especially early on. Neither of which are stopped by Janissaries nearly fast enough.

Arrow Knights don't counter great bombards

Yes, they do. Remember to put them in stagger formation and Great Bombards are not cost effective against 'em.

Jaguar Prowlers die before getting close

That's why the good Aztec players use their 750-1250 HP Warchief to slow down a group so Jaguar Knights can catch up fairly easily.
Or even Coyote Runners. Jans having to switch to melee mode to fight Coyotes, end up getting torn up by the Jaguar Knights instead.

And it's true Aztecs can't counter large groups of skirms.

Just as it is true that, unless you're playing Iroquois or Spain, you can't counter large groups of Eagle Knights.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 01:28 AM EDT (US)     56 / 117       
Civs good against ERKs.
-Spain (rods)
-Iroquois (forest prowlers)
-Dutch (very large number of skirms)
-French (RG skirms, 20 extra military pop)

Civs that can break-even with ERKs
-Germany (RG skirms)
-Brits (late game yeomen longbows)
-Portugal (Cassidors work somewhat)

Civs that are just shit out of luck against ERKs late game
-Russia (Strelets? pffff)
-Ottomans (50 abus lose to 100 eagles)
-Sioux (wakina just won't cut it against ERKs)


+----------+
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT |
| FEED THE |
| TROLLS |
+----------+
Beatnik Joe
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 10:25 AM EDT (US)     57 / 117       
Mmm ... I don't think you've seen what players at my level do with Cuirassiers in Fortress. They can hardly be called "well behaved". There's a reason Starsky was frustrated enough with the unit to go as far as to say their splash damage should be removed.
At a cost of 300 resources per cuir, that's an expenditure of 3000 resources in the fortress age. 3000 resources would get you 16 or 17 dragoons. Alternately, you can scramble up 25 halberdiers. 10 cuirassiers in fortress age will get completely destroyed by either of those armies.

That's because as of TWC, Cuirassiers are already broken by the time you face the first 10 in one group with just the one combat card applied. Especially if you're playing a civ that doesn't have the greatest anti-cav capabilities.
What's changed about fortress cuirassiers in TWC? The only cuirassier boost I can think of is the thoroughbreds card, which is very much a late-game thing.

Oh I don't know about that, Joe. Fully upgraded Tomahawks backed up by upgraded Field Cannons is one tough cookie to crack. This isn't Muskets and Heavy Cannons. This is an order of magnitude harder.
Heh, I always thought musket\heavy cannon was pretty darn potent myself. What's superior about tomahawk\light cannon? Is it just the sheer numbers of light cannon that can be raised and their good range? Their actual effect against infantry is a lot weaker and they have bad hitpoints, so I've always theorized that staggered skirm \ cav or staggered skirm \ culverin would beat that combo. It is brutal that they have the range of a culverin, though... and their cost is so low, too.

Uh oh, is it that Warchief bonus? Do light cannons no longer get one-shot killed by culvs if he's hanging around? I think culverin royale should still be able to cap them in one shot but I haven't run the numbers. If not, that would... suck.

This is because Fort Hop isn't actually all it's cracked up to be. I faced it recently in a game. I was able to crack it by doing a FI and going Mortar Happy. I was able to crack it before the Russian player did not yet have the capacity to truly be able to spam them.
You certainly handled it right -- you ended it before it began. However, I submit that you didn't see the actual Fort Hop. Rather, you drowned it at birth.

I'd compare it to ERK spam -- to counter it, you must kill the Aztec player before they get a chance to use it. Most of the time, you can. ERKs are really expensive and require a good number of upgrades to become unstoppable. They're at their best when you have clashes of full-pop armies. This often doesn't happen. But on those occasions where the Aztec player somehow lives that long, that's when you see what ERKs are really made of. Early on, one abus gun will beat one unupgraded ERK -- great. But late game, is 1 abus gun going to even scratch 2 upgraded ERKs? Not on your life.

I think it's the same with the Fort Hop. The idea behind it is that the eco has reached a point where it doesn't stop. Fort Hop is a tsunami of muskets, cannons, culverins, walls, and buildings. This is the reason that Russia excels at Treaty (rivalling or even beating France) but lags a bit behind other civs in Supremacy.

It's hard to get that far, but once you see a Fort Hop... you'll know it. It's the kind of thing that makes you think, "Maybe I'll just go ahead and Revolt so at least I can hear that cool music."

Just as it is true that, unless you're playing Iroquois or Spain, you can't counter large groups of Eagle Knights.
Dutch can do it too. 150 pop of 2 parts skirm, 1 part halb will destroy just about any Aztec force, including mass ERK spam. As TheRomans said, France also does pretty well if they stick with skirm\dragoon and properly upgrade. Russia and Otto need to try not to let it get that far.

Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
John_Galt_750
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 03:08 PM EDT (US)     58 / 117       

They do, and quite well. It's like saying Strelets don't counter Janissaries. Guess what, Macehualtin actually have a higher damage output per second against heavy infantry than Strelets. Like I said, Macehualtin not countering heavy infantry is a myth.

The Macehualtin's range, low density and high ROF make that dps unacheivable. Or do things like footprint not matter? And even if that dps is attained it's not a myth.

1 mace = 108vs 4dps vs HI/80hp
1 Jan = 161vs 4.6dps vs LI (*30%RR)/235hp

10 Jans vs 15 maces = 46dps/2350hp vs 60dps/1200hp

Jans should kill maces with at least 3 left if not 4. It takes 20 maces to one shot a jan. 5 jans can one shot a mace. Hardly a counter.


John_Galt_750 writes:
Jans kill their counters. (jaguars)
Ender:
In small numbers, yes (hit and run). Large numbers, no.

I would say the opposite is true if anything. A large number of ranged units vs a large number of melee units = ranged advantage. Small number of melee units vs small number of ranged units = melee advantage.


...Puma Spearmen are some of the greatest threats Abus Guns can face in Colonial

Admit it Ender your being a little creative here?


TheRomans:
Civs that are just shit out of luck against ERKs late game
-Russia (Strelets? pffff) * poor unit choice - JG
-Ottomans (50 abus lose to 100 eagles) * not cost comparable and poor unit choice -JG
-Sioux (wakina just won't cut it against ERKs)

All three of these have an advantage vs. aztec in early or mid game. Which goes back to my previous point.

If an Aztec player, at an early disadvantage, can afford to:
1. make it to age3
2. get a full FP going
3. spend 5 unit upgrade cards
5. Build an expensive unit all the way to pop limit

Then maybe you have already been losing.

Aztec has some powerful strengths but also some gigantic weaknesses. Play them for a while and you will see how easily they are countered as a civ.

Voltiguer
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 04:13 PM EDT (US)     59 / 117       
John, you either have no actual ingame experience or you are biased of some sort, because maces certainly DO counter jans per cost.
Eicho
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 04:57 PM EDT (US)     60 / 117       
Ill say that in small numbers, Jaguar Knights own Janissary.
cause , i think you are forgetting sleath.

if someone that has Jaguars vs Jannies is making micro,
he put his jags in sleath, go right next to oyur jannies,
putting them in all the sides of the janissary square, and then put them all in meele at the same time.

so jags win.

(OBIUSLY explorer can see sleath, and if he has the explorer there, jans will win... )

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 05:34 PM EDT (US)     61 / 117       
At a cost of 300 resources per cuir, that's an expenditure of 3000 resources in the fortress age. 3000 resources would get you 16 or 17 dragoons. Alternately, you can scramble up 25 halberdiers. 10 cuirassiers in fortress age will get completely destroyed by either of those armies.

All true, but you don't face 10 Cuirassiers with 17 Dragoons or 25 Halberdiers.
You face 10 locally trained Cuirassiers, one or two shipments and one age up bonus worth of Skirmishers (14 to 21), and market upgraded CdBs added to the firepower when you attack. And the imperative is on you to attack, else they outboom you and then you WILL face nothing but upgraded Cuirassiers.

The trouble is that you can't really hurt the Frenchies that utilize CdBs correctly while they Fortress. And even if you have, it doesn't take that much moving around of CdBs even under attack to gather 1500 food and 1500 gold in the two minutes needed to produce 10 Cuirassiers. Especially if (heh, "if") you CdBs were free to gather during the aging process.

That's what they do, the Frenchies I end up fighting. The moment they hit Fortress virtually intact thanks to CdB power (and sometimes the 8 Crossbows card for real emergencies), they start training Cuirassiers from the stable they put up in transition, while shipping Skirmishers. Soon enough, usually even before 10 minutes into the game you're facing the Cuirassier + Skirmisher nightmare.

And god help you if you were actually stupid enough to try and rush the Frenchie in Colonial. You'll have wasted resources nearly for nothing, and will now be facing Cuirassiers + Skirmishers pumped from a fully intact economy, while you're likely still stuck in Colonial, barely scraping together the resources to age up.

What's changed about fortress cuirassiers in TWC? The only cuirassier boost I can think of is the thoroughbreds card, which is very much a late-game thing.

The cards. They're stronger.
When it comes to Cuirassiers, each additional unit, each additional percent point of improvement is magnified more than for any standard cavalry unit, due to area damage and high base HP. And those improvements are based on Fortress stats.

Heh, I always thought musket\heavy cannon was pretty darn potent myself. What's superior about tomahawk\light cannon?

It's a combination of all the reasons you listed, the Warchief aura affecting their HP. A Culverin Royal will again kill an aura affected Light Cannon in one hit, but it doesn't kill an aura affect Field Cannon (the upgraded version) in one hit once again. The Warchief aura allows the Iroquois player to remain one step ahead.
Then there is the fact that Damage Dance affects light cannons as well.
And if that wasn't enough, the pop space requirement for Light Cannons/Field Cannons can be reduced via a card.
Let's also not forget that while Heavy Cannons are limited by factory train speed, Light Cannons are produced from a foundary at the pleasure of an Iroquois player AND are affected by the Fertility Dance.
Oh bu there's more! They don't have a packing animation. So they can "shoot and scoot" in the most literal sense. I've actually had Iroquois players shoot off a volley then run their Light Cannons around their meatshield as if they were Abus Guns or Skirmishers, to prevent my hand cavalry from killing them.

Now combine all this with the cheap ass price and the insane range that you mentioned, and you have one hell of an overpowered combo.

You certainly handled it right -- you ended it before it began. However, I submit that you didn't see the actual Fort Hop. Rather, you drowned it at birth.

It's certainly possible. As I said, the civ evaluations in my original post were made based on my impressions and experiences in using (some of) them or playing against them.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 05:35 PM EDT (US)     62 / 117       
The Macehualtin's range, low density and high ROF make that dps unacheivable.
Or do things like footprint not matter?

Macehualtin have the same range as Strelets. Take up the same footprint (unit density) as Strelets. And if anything, high rate of fire with low damage makes that DPS more achievable because there is less overkill. Which, buy the way, is something Destiny_Devils "mathematical proof" can't take into account.

10 Jans vs 15 maces = 46dps/2350hp vs 60dps/1200hp

A nonexistent problem normally solved by the mere fact that there are not 50% more Macehualtin than Jans on the field, but 100% more, if not higher.
By 5:30 into the game an Ottoman can have 10 Janissaries in his opponent's base (assuming ideal conditions and no disruption whatsoever on the establishing of a vulnerable forward base). By that point in time an Aztec player has 19 to 24 Macehualtin, easy.

But you're welcome to point to any replay where pure Janissaries posed an actual threat to an Aztec player at any point in the game.

Jans should kill maces with at least 3 left if not 4. It takes 20 maces to one shot a jan. 5 jans can one shot a mace. Hardly a counter.

It takes 6 Janissaries and three seconds to one shot kill a Macehualtin. It takes 20 Macehualtin and 3 seconds to one-shot kill a Janissary.
Considering that this and greater numbers disparity will always be in play in actual combat, there is no problem. Unless, of course, the Aztec player falls behind on Macehualtin production, while the Ottoman player keeps on pumping Jans non-stop.

I would say the opposite is true if anything. A large number of ranged units vs a large number of melee units = ranged advantage. Small number of melee units vs small number of ranged units = melee advantage.

Only in a vacuum. I can hit and run, easily, the first 3 Jaguar Knights that show up from a BB tech. It's harder with the next 6. It's nearly impossible with the next 12. Why? Because Janissaries are slower. I can only kill so many high HP Jaguar Knights before they're on top of my forces.

And there are always, always other units involved. I can (and have) continue to hit and run for a while, sacrificing small groups of melee mode Jans to slow down the incoming Jaguar Knights, but it only buys a little time, as those I leave behind get torn apart by Macehualtin which too are faster than Jans and catch up fairly quickly. Then there are Puma Spearmen and Janeys, both of which are also faster than Jans and thus eventually catch up as well.
This is why a pure Jan defense never works against rushing Aztec in early to mid Colonial.

And speaking of Puma spearmen, if they are involved, you'll most likely not be able to hit and run at all. While you hit and run Jaguars or Janeys, the Pumas will stay and tear down TPs, military buildings, houses, basically anything they can get their hands on.
When Aztec players get Pumas involved, hit and run becomes unavailable as an option. You have to stay and fight, or lose everything above and then your TC.

Admit it Ender your being a little creative here?

Hell no. I actually witness in game what good Aztec players do with Pumas. Do you even realize that they are Rodeleros with 1 less speed? And that for -1 speed and a slightly higher VS cost they get insane siege capability and an even more insane anti-cav capability?
Pumas pose the same threat to Abus Guns in Colonial as do Rodeleros. And the Aztec players at my level and beyond have been taking full advantage of this.

Just because you haven't yet realized the power of this unit, doesn't mean others haven't.

The funny thing is, that most Aztec players have NO IDEA how to utilize their entire armament. They expect everything to die to Macehualtin and Coyote Runners. If you want that, go play Russia back in Vanilla.

They cry "Oh woe me my Macehualtin get killed by heavy infantry they're supposed to counter!".
Not true, of course, but even if it was, think for a second and take it as an opportunity. As the better of your peers do. If your opponent is fighting your Macehualtin head on with Muskets or Jans, take a group of Pumas with their insane seige and go raise his buildings. Or his TPs if he's Ottoman.
Now your opponent has to make a choice, do I try and defend my infrastructure while Macehualtin are melting my infantry, or do I fight off the Macehualtin and lose half my base or my TPs?

Being Ottoman, when I find myself in this "rock and hard place" situation, it's worse than for other civs. Others can send some cheap ass light infantry to chase the Pumas away from the TP under attack. I can send Abus, but instead of running, they charge my Abus, who can't possibly get away and kill 'em.
Yeah they'll lose half their numbers getting into melee, but the end result is still the same, the Abus are dead, and so will be my TP in a few seconds.

I don't really want to be blunt, but half the Aztec players I meet in QS have basically ignored Puma Spearmen, which is idiotic. The power locked in that unit is tremendous. The other half, that do make use of 'em, make you feel sorry for living.

For Pete's sake, Aztec players, use your brain. If you're fighting an Ottoman and you've barely defeated his army, but his trade route, his forward base and his houses are still standing, did you really achieve anything?
But if you lost to his army by a small margin (that'll get defeated handily by your quickly trained reinforcements), yet his forward base and his trade route is gone to Puma attacks, what have you achieved in this case? Victory in 5 minutes, that's what.

And god damnit now I'm sorry I wrote this, because my life as Ottoman is about to get even worse ...


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 05:46 PM EDT (US)     63 / 117       
Thats a clever list you've done there, does demonstrate why strong civs are strong and why weak civs are weak in better terms. I would disagree that France's "economic mid game growth speed potential" isn't very strong.. I don't think any civ without fertility can have a very strong eco speed potential. I think strong or average to strong would be better.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 06:24 PM EDT (US)     64 / 117       
At a cost of 300 resources per cuir, that's an expenditure of 3000 resources in the fortress age. 3000 resources would get you 16 or 17 dragoons. Alternately, you can scramble up 25 halberdiers. 10 cuirassiers in fortress age will get completely destroyed by either of those armies.

the problem with 17 dragoon and 25 halbs, is that apart from beating cuirs they have no battle field value when the other half of the french army is pure skirms, because you have no way of knowing the proportion of his res into skirm and cuirs, wrong guess will cost you dearly.


one of the reason french is so strong , and has always been strong, is their fortress game only need these 2 units, while most civ need 3~4 different units to cover all possible weakness, they save on upgrade and building cost and makes military much easier to manage.

TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 06:43 PM EDT (US)     65 / 117       

TheRomans:
Civs that are just shit out of luck against ERKs late game
-Russia (Strelets? pffff) * poor unit choice - JG
-Ottomans (50 abus lose to 100 eagles) * not cost comparable and poor unit choice -JG
-Sioux (wakina just won't cut it against ERKs)

All three of these have an advantage vs. aztec in early or mid game. Which goes back to my previous point.

If an Aztec player, at an early disadvantage, can afford to:
1. make it to age3
2. get a full FP going
3. spend 5 unit upgrade cards
5. Build an expensive unit all the way to pop limit

Then maybe you have already been losing.

ROFL! You just proved how well you don't read things closely. I said counters late game where pop is the main factor.

Tell me then what is russia suppost to use late game? Muskets will get owned at range and will die trying to go in melee. Halbs won't make it there if aztec as any knowledge of H&R. Cav archers? ROFL! Strelets are russia's best hope.

Of course 50 abus guns vs 100 eagles is not cost comparable as only an idiot would field 100 abus guns as you would have to delete your eco to do so. Abus are ottoman's best hope, but still 2 pop each.

Sioux are the only ones that come close out of the 3.


And what early advantages do these 3 civs have against Aztec? Russia is way too slow to have an effective rush without sacrificing eco. Janeys, Jags, Maces, and Coyotes will own any attempt at a russian rush as russia is just too slow to take them out early.

Any Aztec player worth his salt will tell you Ottoman is the easiest civ to beat for them. As ender has already said, the ottoman rush is not hard to beat as Aztec if you counter it right.

Sioux have a short time span to kill you before you can overwhelm with ERKs, after that short period, GG sioux.

As for your VS calculations, and DPS calculations, they say nothing. Your math doesn't factor in things like H&R, speed, range, micro, and even lag.


+----------+
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT |
| FEED THE |
| TROLLS |
+----------+
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 06:47 PM EDT (US)     66 / 117       
You won't get very far with france if you don't build dragoons and falcs in fort, ulti. :\

mass cav>skirm+cuir.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 06:50 PM EDT (US)     67 / 117       
Adam,
The ones I fight usually just ship the 2 Falconets and they do the job for a while. As for Dragoons, I usually notice they eventually send 5 in a shipment and train 5 more, which covers their needs as well.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-07 07:11 PM EDT (US)     68 / 117       
You won't get very far with france if you don't build dragoons and falcs in fort, ulti. :\

mass cav>skirm+cuir.

depends on what you call "very far"

2500? maybe not, but several 2100~2200 have been doing just that - leading the pack is Ourk, apart from the 10 muskts he makes in colonial all hemakes is cuirs and skirms.

taking about massed cav? who dares mass cav anyway? the only other civs with decent cav is spain with lancer - which lose to cuirs badly, and sioux - which french should always make dragoon + cuirs against.

everyone else are stuck with cav of hussar's class, they dont mass cav unless:

they are dutch going ruyter + hussar, not many dutch do this.
they are british who has all 3 hussar card, even less than above dutch
they are german who mass uhlans, when was the last time you saw this?
there are some very good mercs in saloon, which is is draw of luck.

egel
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 04:20 AM EDT (US)     69 / 117       
~~~British~~~
Boom: strong
Economic early growth speed potential: very fast
Economic mid game growth speed potential: moderate
Rush: weak
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: weak
Military strength early game: average
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: very strong

Might I say:
Economic mid game growth speed potential: moderate
only if you don't FI with Estates.

I suggest Economic mid game growth speed potential: very fast
If you use Estates. As it is potential, liklihood of use shouldn't affect it .
Just my 2 cents. Liking the aruments this has started so far though, lol.

Btw, I agree totally with your second to last post (The big one refuting JG).


Ceres 629's strategy guides

Vive la mort, vive la guerre, vive le sacre mercenaire.

0 A.D

[This message has been edited by egel (edited 04-28-2007 @ 04:30 AM).]

MonsieurSpanky
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 05:38 AM EDT (US)     70 / 117       
~~~Iroquois~~~
Boom: all or nothing
Economic early growth speed potential: moderate
Economic mid game growth speed potential: the firepit makes villagers fast but slows your eco down because you lose villagers to dance. so its not "extreme" its "good"
Rush: fast but not really strong
Turtle: safe but not particularly great
Fast Fortress: fp < falconets culverins
For the iroquois cavalry doesnt really counter artillery cost effectivley.
Military strength early game: good till the big buttons are gone then your up shitcreek
Military strength mid game: lots of units, no cannons so... not really op, once industrial they strong but, coins hard once mines are gone, weak plantations........
Max economic capacity: 120 villagers is good but their plantations suks SUKS! SUKS! 80 pop for an army sucs and if you send the seige army cards then your ff is weaaaaaak

of course a 1v1 player would overestimate the iroquois,
in 3v3 they are good but not op, just speedy which is the real difference.
Ender_ward u said something about how if you have any skill after 50 games you should not be in the 1600s
i think if you play 3v3 random thats not so true, I found 1v1 a little lonely so i dont play it much. my rank in team doesnt go up because in 3v3 random you are garunteed to lose half your games no matter how good you are.

so i get better but my rank doesnt move around much, i made it a point to get to captain so i could play in all the 3v3s i find but further than that is pointless. my elo is a little above 1700 for team and around 1650 last time i checked for 1v1. if I played tvb games(which are cheap, and my freinds who play this all suck so it would be pointless anyway) or decided to play only 1v1s it would change but I think skill wise im probably as good as you.

team players are more creative because there is not set counter to unit combinations from different civs. 1v1 its just making the same counter to the same unit every time, and if you just lame one culture all day(otto ((which are lamer than iro))) its really just a ritual, not a competition.

all your opinions only apply to 1v1.
3v3 and 2v2>1v1
3v3 and 2v2 way more fun
3v3 is best tho
dont blow so much smoke up your own ..a....

MusketKing
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 05:52 AM EDT (US)     71 / 117       
Turtle: safe but not particularly great

Well with GH and TC's I beg to differ.
For the iroquois cavalry doesnt really counter artillery cost effectivley.

Ever heard of light cannons? These counter artillery, are cheap and rox.
lots of units, no cannons so...

Again refer to Light Cannons.

"The better at AoE, the worse at RL" - Doppel
After someone suggesting to make a meatshield to fight off petards..."Where can I find this meatshield? Is it in the TC?" - Sjalle

"That last comment has earned you a ban Musk" - Solus
On realising I was on a 2nd account:"Quinarvy ehhh" - Solus

RUSSIAN CIVIL WAR - VERY GG
Mine and Micky's OPness

[This message has been edited by MusketKing (edited 04-28-2007 @ 01:33 PM).]

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 06:22 AM EDT (US)     72 / 117       
Adam,
The ones I fight usually just ship the 2 Falconets and they do the job for a while. As for Dragoons, I usually notice they eventually send 5 in a shipment and train 5 more, which covers their needs as well.
I'll give you the falcs. But dragoons are essential - not against otto though, as 10 will handle spahi and and a load of spies take care of mams better than goons will. In a french mirror though, you can't go without them.

Try making only skirms and cuirs in a french mirror, you'll get owned by any french player. Your cuirs won't reach his skirms because they'll evaporate under goon fire, and his cuirs will attack your unprotected skirms. Vs sioux you have to really mass them too for them to be effective vs 8.1 speed cav. Seeing as mass cav beats a skirm cuir combo, dragoons are essential.

depends on what you call "very far"

2500? maybe not, but several 2100~2200 have been doing just that - leading the pack is Ourk, apart from the 10 muskts he makes in colonial all hemakes is cuirs and skirms.

I call very far.. hmm maybe to 2.1k?

taking about massed cav? who dares mass cav anyway? the only other civs with decent cav is spain with lancer - which lose to cuirs badly, and sioux - which french should always make dragoon + cuirs against.
Heh. You can't make cuirs to counter lancers - that only works in a vacuum. Try that and your cuirs will get eaten up by rods before the lancers die. You need goons which can hit and run and stay outta the range of rods. Send the cuirs round the back for skirms. Sioux mass cav. As mentioned before you need goons vs a mirror, also vs iro for the 5 cuir shipment you need to build dragoons. I lost to a russian cossack spammer the other day because i didn't make enough dragoons.

people do still build cav like hussar and its much better to counter them with goons than it is to swarm them with cuirs when their LI+w/e is shooting you down.

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 02:33 PM EDT (US)     73 / 117       
Heh. You can't make cuirs to counter lancers - that only works in a vacuum. Try that and your cuirs will get eaten up by rods before the lancers die. You need goons which can hit and run and stay outta the range of rods.

who said only make cuirs? it is cuirs + skirms

cuirs beat lancers on cost, it is a undeniable fact, if your skirms kill off his rods first you will win the battle, vice versa if his rods kill off your cuirs first you will lose, that is the game between french and spanish nowadays, cant get anymore obvious than that. that is exactly how Ourk beaten NS got into semi-finals in BOB.

also vs iro for the 5 cuir shipment you need to build dragoons.

5 shipped is more than enough.

I lost to a russian cossack spammer the other day because i didn't make enough dragoons.

that happens once how often? and you probably were outplayed anyway, its not like french is on the same level as russian in this patch.


people do still build cav like hussar and its much better to counter them with goons than it is to swarm them with cuirs when their LI+w/e is shooting you down.

yes people make hussars, i make a lot of them, but you have to realise making is different to massing, making means a propertion of army, wheres massing means majority of the army.

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 02:43 PM EDT (US)     74 / 117       
who said only make cuirs? it is cuirs + skirms

cuirs beat lancers on cost, it is a undeniable fact, if your skirms kill off his rods first you will win the battle, vice versa if his rods kill off your cuirs first you will lose, that is the game between french and spanish nowadays, cant get anymore obvious than that. that is exactly how Ourk beaten NS got into semi-finals in BOB.

rods>cuirs before skirms>rods AND before cuirs>lancers. Cuirs don't work. You need goons.

5 shipped is more than enough.
very funny.

by the time 5 goons do anything half your skirms are dead.

that happens once how often? and you probably were outplayed anyway, its not like french is on the same level as russian in this patch.
of course i was outplayed, but that doesn't change the fact that I needed to build goons and didn't build enough of them, you can't try to mass cuirs vs a colonial cossacks spammer cause he's been building them longer than you and has a lot more. And even if you do beat his cossacks with your cuirs, likelihood is there won't be enough to finish off his strelets.

yes people make hussars, i make a lot of them, but you have to realise making is different to massing, making means a propertion of army, wheres massing means majority of the army.
I said make... and like i said when someone makes hussars making 1 or 2 batches of dragoons is better than just making cuirs.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 03:08 PM EDT (US)     75 / 117       
rods>cuirs before skirms>rods AND before cuirs>lancers. Cuirs don't work. You need goons.

do you know the first militery building spanish make? it is a barrack.

do you know what unit they make the most from that barrack and will continue to make till they have rods upgraded well? its skirms

do you know why they make skirms agaist french? here is a clue - its not for the french skirms nor for the french cuirs.

very funny.
by the time 5 goons do anything half your skirms are dead.

adam, can you get your head around it please? french make BOTH cuirs and skirms. why should my skirms all be dead when i have more cuirs than him!!?


of course i was outplayed, but that doesn't change the fact that I needed to build goons and didn't build enough of them, you can't try to mass cuirs vs a colonial cossacks spammer cause he's been building them longer than you and has a lot more. And even if you do beat his cossacks with your cuirs, likelihood is there won't be enough to finish off his strelets.

so...you successfully went into fortress and still lost to a colonial russian - who spams cossack - easily the worst local melee cavalry in the game.

but lets not look at that. you now claim he has massed cossacks that killed off your cuirs AND he massed strelets that you cant beat!?

1, if that is the case guess what these strelets do to your dragoons?

2, how does he manage to out produce on colonial eco? by 8:00 russian oly has 23 vils, by 10:00 only 29 vils, you should have almost that many CdBs.

« Previous Page  1 2 3 4 5  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires III Heaven | HeavenGames