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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » The real measuring stick - civ gameplay capacities/abilities:
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Topic Subject:The real measuring stick - civ gameplay capacities/abilities:
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Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-24-07 10:23 PM EDT (US)         
I started thinking, and it dawned on me that most of the "problem" civs are those that can do too much, too well, and not those with one particular overpowered unit or three. Those are still factors, but not primary ones. Instead of speaking in generalities, let me simply show you what I mean by looking at each civ specifically.

(Note #1: maximum economic capacity means what is the absolute maximum this civ can expand it's economy to by using gather rate techs and cards)

(Note #2: economic growth speed refers to how quickly a civ can expand it's economy both early and mid game)

(Note #3: I should've specified this right away, "mid game" military strength is actually everything from about 9 minutes in till the rest of the game, including going way into Imperial)

~~~British~~~
Boom: strong
Economic early growth speed potential: very fast
Economic mid game growth speed potential: moderate
Rush: weak
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: weak
Military strength early game: average
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Spanish~~~
Boom: moderate
Economic early growth speed potential: fast
Economic mid game growth speed potential: moderate
Rush: strong
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: extremely strong
Military strength early game: extremely strong
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Germans~~~
Boom: moderate
Economic early growth speed potential: moderate
Economic mid game growth speed potential: moderate
Rush: weak
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: moderate
Military strength early game: weak
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Ottomans~~~
Boom: weak
Economic early growth speed potential: very fast
Economic mid game growth speed potential: weak
Rush: very strong
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: strong
Military strength early game: strong
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: strong


~~~Sioux~~~
Boom: moderate
Economic early growth speed potential: moderate
Economic mid game growth speed potential: weak
Rush: strong
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: strong
Military strength early game: very strong
Military strength mid game: very strong
Max economic capacity: weak


~~~Russians~~~
Boom: strong
Economic early growth speed potential: moderate
Economic mid game growth speed potential: strong
Rush: moderate
Turtle: moderate
Fast Fortress: weak
Military strength early game: average
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~French~~~
Boom: strong
Economic early growth speed potential: moderate
Economic mid game growth speed potential: very strong
Rush: moderate
Turtle: weak
Fast Fortress: strong
Military strength early game: average
Military strength mid game: extreme
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Dutch~~~
Boom: strong
Economic early growth speed potential: extreme
Economic mid game growth speed potential: moderate
Rush: moderate
Turtle: extreme
Fast Fortress: strong
Military strength early game: strong
Military strength mid game: very strong
Max economic capacity: weak


~~~Aztec~~~
Boom: very strong
Economic early growth speed potential: fast
Economic mid game growth speed potential: extreme
Rush: moderate
Turtle: strong
Fast Fortress: moderate
Military strength early game: average
Military strength mid game: extreme
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Portuguese~~~
Boom: strong
Economic early growth speed potential: slow
Economic mid game growth speed potential: very fast
Rush: weak
Turtle: strong
Fast Fortress: moderate
Military strength early game: weak
Military strength mid game: strong
Max economic capacity: very strong


~~~Iroquois~~~
Boom: extreme
Economic early growth speed potential: moderate
Economic mid game growth speed potential: extreme
Rush: strong
Turtle: extreme
Fast Fortress: extremely strong
Military strength early game: strong
Military strength mid game: extreme
Max economic capacity: very strong


Now, you might say that these evaluations are highly subjective, and they are, since they are based on how I view those civs. If you agree with my assessments, see if you can notice the problems. See if you can correlate how the civs with few or no weaknesses, and/or too many strengths perform overall.
See if you agree that perhaps ES should be thinking in broader terms. Instead of giving a small cut or boost to a unit here and there, they should be evaluating civ abilities, capacities as a whole. By taking a holistic approach to civ balance, they can achieve better results. Not just extend the never ending game of musical civs.

By which I mean, identify what are the important abilities that are required for a civ to be competitive in TWC. Make sure that no civ is left behind so completely as to have no chance, in that ability. Identify what combination of abilities leads to too much strength. Identify which combination leads to too much strength too quickly. Etc. Address those major issues.

For example, say you've identified that the Spanish combination of early economy growth speed, their early game military strength and their FF strength combine into a force that most other civs have a very hard time dealing with at the time it comes together. Evaluate how, perhaps, if you toned down any one of these three abilities, what kind of effect it would have on the overall matchup between Spanish and other civs.

By looking at these civ abilities, you can note confluences that lead to too much advantage. It isn't hard to notice how a civ that is very strong at too many things too early is going to dominate so much, early on, that it'll never actually give other civs the opportunity to get to the point where they have some strengths.

At the same time, if you see a civ that has too many very strong abilities/capacities mid/later game, would become impossible to compete with if not defeated early on. It would follow then, that the matchup would be simply impossible for a civ that doesn't have that many (or any) strengths early on to capitalize upon, and hopefully defeat the late game monster.

Anyway, enough rambling. Hopefully you get my drift.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 04-25-2007 @ 01:56 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 04:10 PM EDT (US)     76 / 117       
do you know the first militery building spanish make? it is a barrack.

do you know what unit they make the most from that barrack and will continue to make till they have rods upgraded well? its skirms

do you know why they make skirms agaist french? here is a clue - its not for the french skirms nor for the french cuirs.

Yes - and dragoons last longer against his skirms than cuirs will against his rods.. its all about the speed at which cuirs counter lancers compared to how fast they die themselves - it's not very fast at all. Which, again, is why you need dragoons.

adam, can you get your head around it please? french make BOTH cuirs and skirms. why should my skirms all be dead when i have more cuirs than him!!?
Because your cuirs have to be attacking his prowlers. As I mentioned before: if you swarm his cuirs with your cuirs he'll just focus fire them, by the time the iro 5 cuirs are dead, you won't have enough to take down his prowlers. Which is why you need to send cuirs at prowlers RIGHT away, and get your (at least) 10 dragoons to take out the iro cuirs.

but lets not look at that. you now claim he has massed cossacks that killed off your cuirs AND he massed strelets that you cant beat!?

1, if that is the case guess what these strelets do to your dragoons?

He didn't mass strelets and they didn't really do much, it was the cossacks. I kept dragoons out of strelet range while hit and running, but he took out by cuirs and skirms and then the strelets came forward.

2, how does he manage to out produce on colonial eco? by 8:00 russian oly has 23 vils, by 10:00 only 29 vils, you should have almost that many CdBs.
I didn't FF - I went aggressive xbow+pike early on cause I expected him to FF, we fought for a bit then went fortress. While I was going up he started water booming. He spent the res I had spent on fortress, on cossacks, and his wb started to pay off.

even if I did FF though he'd outmass me for the same reason - he has more training time and 2k more res cause i spent it on fortress.

egel
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 04:38 PM EDT (US)     77 / 117       
Because your cuirs have to be attacking his prowlers. As I mentioned before: if you swarm his cuirs with your cuirs he'll just focus fire them, by the time the iro 5 cuirs are dead, you won't have enough to take down his prowlers. Which is why you need to send cuirs at prowlers RIGHT away, and get your (at least) 10 dragoons to take out the iro cuirs.
I think you are still missing Ulti's point. You too can focus fire. And of it's cuirs + skirms vs 5 cuirs + FPs, I think you will find that neither army has a bonus vs cav, cuirs resist ranged I beleive, and cuirs have Area of Effect. Possibly your skirms + cuirs will pwn his just 5 cuirs before turning what's left of your cuirs + all your skirms on his FPs. Depending on how many cuirs you have, you could crash a few into the FPs while you kill his cuirs any way. It would certainly distract him from the bulk of the cuirs + ur skirms nailing his 5 cuirs.

Ceres 629's strategy guides

Vive la mort, vive la guerre, vive le sacre mercenaire.

0 A.D
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 05:01 PM EDT (US)     78 / 117       
adam you need to realise

1, skirms kill dragoons pretty fast,

2, you cant have dragoon stay out of strelet's range while killing cossack

3, french has more cuirs than iro, a fair battle would be 8 cuirs + 10 skirm VS his 5 cuirs + 18 FP, both side should have equal chance, but if you swap 3 cuirs for 5 goons, making it 5 cuir + 5 goon + 10 skirms, my money is on the iro, because FP focus fire on dragoon > FP focus fire on cuirs.

4, why dont you tell Ourk to make dragoon against spanish, maybe he would have beaten Ruthless and NP with your advice...

John_Galt_750
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 07:17 PM EDT (US)     79 / 117       

Volti: " John.. Inexperienced/biased etc..."

Is experience with the civ a valid criterion to judge my opinion? Is that necessary to make a judgement on a units effectiveness? What rating do I need before I can be considered correct? How many games played?

I am trying to meet otto players halfway. Bias is of course possible, but if I'll admit an ERK advantage otto players should admit theirs.


Macehualtin have the same range as Strelets. Take up the same footprint (unit density) as Strelets. And if anything, high rate of fire with low damage makes that DPS more achievable because there is less overkill. Which, buy the way, is something Destiny_Devils "mathematical proof" can't take into account.

Ok then lets talk micro instead of math. That same high RoF makes H&R much less effective. Are you going to stop and shoot every 1.5 seconds?

Despite greater speed you can't effectively pursue a retreating Jan force. On the run Jans can still do all their damage and maces can't. If the maces are out of range of the jans generally only the front row of maces can fire. The units you can use effectively to slow down the jans are also countered by them.

So you have LI that loses in a stand up fight, can't hit&run very well, and can only pursue the jans by throwing bodies in their way. If maces are still considered an HI counter at least they are not an effective one.


A nonexistent problem normally solved by the mere fact that there are not 50% more Macehualtin than Jans on the field, but 100% more, if not higher.
By 5:30 into the game an Ottoman can have 10 Janissaries in his opponent's base (assuming ideal conditions and no disruption whatsoever on the establishing of a vulnerable forward base). By that point in time an Aztec player has 19 to 24 Macehualtin, easy.

Yes it's possible for an aztec player to have more but they also cost more, and even if I guess that Jan rush correctly you can still just run away and I can't effectively pursue.

If I guessed wrong and you FF those maces will truly enjoy meeting spahi. They will remember it the rest of their lives.


Ender: Pumas rant

I will agree that most aztec players undestimate pumas. But you left out something, their 20% resist vs. rodeleros 40% resist makes a difference in combat.

The idea of sneaking a group of pumas around to attack an otto base is valid, and does work occasionally. But most otto players know that pumas are siegetroopers and die alarmingly fast to MM. Also sending abus by themselves against anything is a bad idea. Jans do just fine vs pumas.

Pumas are a huge investment, and it turns any other army I have into nothing more than a speed bump for your Jans/abus. As you said the primary reason maces win is because aztec can make more of them earlier. Well we can't make more maces and still pumas on the side. MM will chase me out of your base but I won't even be able to produce warriors because your jans will have my FP covered.

Ender where are aztecs supposed to get this lake of resources to somehow win a fight with counters that don't work and at the same time produce a seige army? Why is it that math is only accurate with it suits you, and micro only occurs to your detriment?

*Edit for Romans comments*


TheRomans:
Civs that are just shit out of luck against ERKs late game
-Russia (Strelets? pffff) * poor unit choice - JG
-Ottomans (50 abus lose to 100 eagles) * not cost comparable and poor unit choice -JG
-Sioux (wakina just won't cut it against ERKs)

John_Galt:
All three of these have an advantage vs. aztec in early or mid game. Which goes back to my previous point.

If an Aztec player, at an early disadvantage, can afford to:
1. make it to age3
2. get a full FP going
3. spend 5 unit upgrade cards
5. Build an expensive unit all the way to pop limit

Then maybe you have already been losing.


TheRomans:
ROFL! You just proved how well you don't read things closely. I said counters late game where pop is the main factor.

Strelets are your first choice late game when pop is a factor?


Tell me then what is russia suppost to use late game? Muskets will get owned at range and will die trying to go in melee. Halbs won't make it there if aztec as any knowledge of H&R. Cav archers? ROFL! Strelets are russia's best hope.

This is a common misconception about russian lategame vs Aztec. Ask a little nicer and maybe I will tell you.


Of course 50 abus guns vs 100 eagles is not cost comparable as only an idiot would field 100 abus guns as you would have to delete your eco to do so. Abus are ottoman's best hope, but still 2 pop each.

I am starting to think you don't understand what incorrect unit choice means.


Sioux are the only ones that come close out of the 3.

Actually Sioux have a harder time than the others, but that's what happens when you put a supposedly cav based civ up against the civ with the best counter-cav in the game. Combine that with a poor late game eco...


And what early advantages do these 3 civs have against Aztec? Russia is way too slow to have an effective rush without sacrificing eco. Janeys, Jags, Maces, and Coyotes will own any attempt at a russian rush as russia is just too slow to take them out early.

A strelet/musket rush aiming to cut off hunts does quite well. Leading with the 5 cossacks is even better.


Any Aztec player worth his salt will tell you Ottoman is the easiest civ to beat for them. As ender has already said, the ottoman rush is not hard to beat as Aztec if you counter it right.

So by implication I am not worth my salt? Thanks, this is why you can figure out your own late game counters.

Any strat can be beaten if you counter it right. The real question is what you have to do and how far you have to go to accomplish that counter. And if your wrong what it ends up costing you.


Sioux have a short time span to kill you before you can overwhelm with ERKs, after that short period, GG sioux.

So it's only a short timespan to late game? Try again.


As for your VS calculations, and DPS calculations, they say nothing. Your math doesn't factor in things like H&R, speed, range, micro, and even lag.

See above.

[This message has been edited by John_Galt_750 (edited 04-28-2007 @ 07:38 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 08:02 PM EDT (US)     80 / 117       
I am trying to meet otto players halfway. Bias is of course possible, but if I'll admit an ERK advantage otto players should admit theirs.

Which advantage is that? Janissaries' high HP? If we don't have that we have nothing in Colonial. Abus are no longer the super-human killing machines they supposedly were, remember?

Ok then lets talk micro instead of math. That same high RoF makes H&R much less effective. Are you going to stop and shoot every 1.5 seconds?
Despite greater speed you can't effectively pursue a retreating Jan force. On the run Jans can still do all their damage and maces can't. If the maces are out of range of the jans generally only the front row of maces can fire.

No, this isn't what you do. You use Macehualtin against retreating units the same way you use Grenadiers, Cavalry Archers or Longbows. You move your fast firing or set up time units into their max range, way into it, then you attack. This way you can complete two-three firing animations (depending on ROF) before the target is out of range and you have to catch up again.

And by the way, when Aztecs rush me, they're in my base, they don't need to chase anything. If my Jans run away, they go after any exposed villagers. I have to stick around and fight.

The units you can use effectively to slow down the jans are also countered by them.

Not at all. Neither Jaguar Knights, Janey pets nor Puma Spearmen get countered by Janissaries.

So you have LI that loses in a stand up fight, can't hit&run very well, and can only pursue the jans by throwing bodies in their way. If maces are still considered an HI counter at least they are not an effective one.

They don't lose in a straight up fight, though. And they are an effective HI counter, because I have yet to see heavy infantry win in a stand up fight against them, other than on paper, of course.

Yes it's possible for an aztec player to have more but they also cost more, and even if I guess that Jan rush correctly you can still just run away and I can't effectively pursue.

If I guessed wrong and you FF those maces will truly enjoy meeting spahi. They will remember it the rest of their lives.


The Spahi will remember meeting Puma Spearmen for the rest of their lives. Or is 40 seconds after the announcement of "Ottoman player X has reached Fortress Age!" not enough time to pump some out?
And I already addressed the "can't pursue" fallacy. Not only can you pursue, but you can make those Jans stand and fight (and lose), or make sure his villagers gather ... nothing.

I will agree that most aztec players undestimate pumas. But you left out something, their 20% resist vs. rodeleros 40% resist makes a difference in combat.

It only makes a difference in combat against heavy infantry. Which you won't be going up against in a straight on fight. In combat against Cavalry, I'd always rather have Puma Spearmen because they do almost TWICE the damage of Rodeleros to it.

And consider this, Puma Spearmen do 12 hand damage, and take 12 damage from Janissaries. Coyote Runners that deal +6 more damage (18) but take 22.5 damage from Janissaries.

You could compare them to Rodeleros, and they'd come off worse, of course (Rods are broken anyway). But your Pumas, once again, have nearly twice the anti-cav damage of Rodeleros and they can do something Rods no longer can, take down buildings in seconds. After all, the seige of a Puma Spearman is 480% that of a Rodelero. Rodeleros can't go and take down the Ottoman's trade route frighteningly quickly while your LI occupies the Janissaries.

the idea of sneaking a group of pumas around to attack an otto base is valid, and does work occasionally. But most otto players know that pumas are siegetroopers and die alarmingly fast to MM. Also sending abus by themselves against anything is a bad idea. Jans do just fine vs pumas.

Sneaking? You don't need to do any sneaking. What am I gonna do, go after your Pumas while the Macehualtin are killing my Jans? I lose regardless. And Minutemen? Assuming I actually have the resources for them, what usually happens is the Pumas and Macehualtin run away for 30 seconds from the 4 speed Minutemen, and when they come back it's a wasted 300 resources.

And that's exactly my point, regarding Abus Guns. Were these Skirmishers, Cherokee/Klamath Riflemen or even bleeding Crossbows, I wouldn't hesitate to send them in alone to chase away Pumas. They don't have that 4 minimum range that eliminates any possibility of successful hit and run against melee units in small numbers.
People who don't play Ottomans themselves don't realize quite how much of a difference that "feature" of Abus Guns makes in early combat.

Pumas are a huge investment, and it turns any other army I have into nothing more than a speed bump for your Jans/abus.

No, to both. The Aztec players I fight ship 6 Pumas, train 5 more and go after my trade route. Their Macehualtin and Janeys/BB Jaguars occupy my Janissaries.

You tell me how I am supposed to deal with 15-20 Macehualtin (10 from shipment) and 3 Jaguars (BB) in my town when I have about 20 Jans, while 6-11 Pumas (6 from shipment) go after my trade route?

I split my forces and I lose both groups. I stay to defend my base/villagers, I'll probably win with the Jans, but my trade route is gone. If I ignore my base and go save my trade route (I won't get there in time to save atleast one TP), my villagers are either garrisoned and not gathering anything, or some of the die, and I probably lose a house or three.

This is what I have to deal with in 1.03 from Aztecs. If there is actually any improvement on the Aztec sides without any on the Ottoman side, this macthup becomes impossible to win for the Ottoman.

Ender where are aztecs supposed to get this lake of resources to somehow win a fight with counters that don't work and at the same time produce a seige army?

You hardly need "lakes of resources" to produce 11 Pumas and 20 Macehualtin, when half of those units come from shipments while you have a Warrior Priest and your Warchief which have you swimming in XP.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 10:22 PM EDT (US)     81 / 117       
I have a level 70 russian home city, I used to play treaty only, I know exactly what russians can do late game. 100 champion 18 range ERKs beat 100 guard muskets, 100 guard halbs, or guard 100 strelets WITHOUT any micro or without 1 damage/hp upgrade card. I said strelets because they are the only LI russia has when LI is the only thing that comes close to beating ERKs.

You can't tell me any other ottoman unit that will be able to stand toe to toe with ERKs, abus are the only ones they have.

I said sioux is the best out of the 3 because 100 wakina will do better than 50 abus or 100 strelets vs 100 ERKs. That whole time I was talking about the effectiveness of each civ's LI vs ERKs.

So it's only a short timespan to late game? Try again.
Thats not what I meant by that, its only a short time before Aztec eco>Sioux eco.

So you actually rushed them with russian and made them retreat back off their hunts, good job. Now how about when they use XP dance to get resource crates quick and age up and send free Farm/Plant upgrade card? Guess that rush really worked, because now you will struggle to catch up and age after being drained by your rush. And if that wasn't enough, Russia has no good siege in colonial, you will hardly have a chance to destroy their base even if you do manage to beat their army.

And in this game I try to never go by only math, even if it is in my favor. I go by what I clearly see in game.

As for saying you are not worth your salt, no thats not what I said. I said that most very high ranked Aztec players think Ottoman is one of the easiest civs for them to face.


+----------+
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT |
| FEED THE |
| TROLLS |
+----------+

[This message has been edited by TheRomans (edited 04-28-2007 @ 10:24 PM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 00:23 AM EDT (US)     82 / 117       
As for saying you are not worth your salt, no thats not what I said. I said that most very high ranked Aztec players think Ottoman is one of the easiest civs for them to face.


not taking any sides, but 1.02 days aztec was the easiest target of ottoman, i didnt think abus ranged resistance change the dynamic that much that it gone from otto owned az to az own otto?

xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 04-29-07 01:01 AM EDT (US)     83 / 117       
On the contrary, abus were the only things keeping ottos alive vs aztecs.
Beatnik Joe
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 10:03 AM EDT (US)     84 / 117       
not taking any sides, but 1.02 days aztec was the easiest target of ottoman, i didnt think abus ranged resistance change the dynamic that much that it gone from otto owned az to az own otto?
Exactly, I'm confused by the same thing. Ottos always owned Aztec in 1.02. Near as I can tell, the changes are:
  • Abus guns would now do worse against macehualtin. I can't imagine this possibly being much of a factor, but it is the major change to colonial. Macehualtin must strike jans at long range or they will lose. Therefore, I'd think it's risky to close with abus once the armies have gotten fairly large.
  • Abus guns now do 50% more damage vs. JPKs, puma spearmen, and all of Aztec's heavy infantry mercs. (Otto advantage.)
  • Aztecs now age up faster. (nice Aztec advantage)
  • If it ever gets started in earnest, Aztec ERK spam will be extremely hard to stop. (Difficult to get there, but extremely powerful.)

    The way I view it now, Aztecs are still behind the curve in colonial. In my opinion, Otto should have a solid upper hand in colonial even with simple jan\abus, so long as they have access to water or a trade route (which they almost always will.)

    Any Aztec player worth his salt will tell you Ottoman is the easiest civ to beat for them.
    The exact opposite was true in 1.02. I think Otto will pay the price if the Aztec rolls out ERK spam, but I see no reason they should have to let that happen outside of Orinoco or similar maps.

    Furthermore, Ottos beat Aztecs in the statistics for Lt. Col+ (by a not-huge margin of 153-143.) The typical Aztec player is surely not going to report Otto (a civ that they statistically slightly lose to) as their easiest opponent.

    And just intuitively speaking, I am pretty sure there aren't any Aztecs out there who draw a Brit or German in quick search and say, "Damn that quicksearch! Why couldn't it have given me an Otto?"

    If there is actually any improvement on the Aztec sides without any on the Ottoman side, this macthup becomes impossible to win for the Ottoman.
    Isn't abus doing 50% more damage against the puma spearman and the JPK a boost as well? A 50% increase in damage is always going to be a factor.

    Neither Jaguar Knights, Janey pets nor Puma Spearmen get countered by Janissaries.
    I don't follow -- Puma spearmen get destroyed by janissaries and 5 Janeys (from the card) will lose to 5 jans. I'd do a per-cost Janey comparison, but she's supposedly worth 225 food, so let's just forget that for now.

    Macehualtins counter janissaries for only one reason -- superior range. If they get close enough for the jans to actually hit them back, they lose. It's quite disheartening when you see this happen, but fortunately it can usually be avoided. It's why macehualtin seem so much better with big-button JPKs around -- the jans have to stay away and end up taking damage from greater range, helping the maces be more effective.

    The bottom line for colonial is that Janissaries can beat everything except Macehualtin (at long range) and the big-button JPKs. That's why lots of janissaries screening for a healthy number of abus guns is going to beat anything the Aztec has. The Aztec doesn't gain a real military advantage until fortress age with the ERK. And the Aztec FF can be easily steamrolled... which means the Aztec is likely going to face the gauntlet of large late-colonial engagements, a very tough position for him.

    On the contrary, abus were the only things keeping ottos alive vs aztecs.
    You must mean in fortress age, right? As you've pointed out several times in the past, Ottos owned Aztecs in 1.02.

    Strategies:
    - BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
    - The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
  • Ender_Ward
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-07 12:05 PM EDT (US)     85 / 117       
    Abus guns would now do worse against macehualtin. I can't imagine this possibly being much of a factor, but it is the major change to colonial. Macehualtin must strike jans at long range or they will lose. Therefore, I'd think it's risky to close with abus once the armies have gotten fairly large.

    The armies don't get large. The first 5 Abus Guns out of a foundry get quickly overwhelmed by 20+ Macehualtin (and other troops).

    What non-Ottoman players don't quite realize is that it's nearly impossible to get good amounts of Jans while getting Abus quickly while getting a trade route up. There's only so much you have, especially if you sent ATP first and you're operating on 12 villagers at 5 minutes. Hell even stagecoach itself doesn't begin to pay back for it's own investment of 400 resources until ~5:30 into the game.

    Which is what Matt meant. Used to be, those first 5 Abus Guns you got out barely in time, in 1.02, were your life line. If you used them right, you could survive the Aztec rush and then turn the tables back on him.
    In 1.03, those 5 Abus just evaporate under combined attack from ranged and melee damage.
    It only takes 11 Macehualtin to remove an Abus Gun from existence every 3 seconds. When he comes with 20 Macehualtin and you're just getting out your first 5 Abus, even in a complete vacuum not involving other units, those 5 Abus die before the Aztec player loses even half his Macehualtin. That is the current problem.

    Now if Abus were located at the barracks, then we would have a chance, as I do now when I can get minor native light infantry instead of them. But they aren't, and so we're utterly screwed against any Aztec smart enough to realize he needs to rush an Ottoman, hard, in 1.03.

    Abus guns now do 50% more damage vs. JPKs, puma spearmen, and all of Aztec's heavy infantry mercs. (Otto advantage.)

    Doesn't matter because the Pumas are over here, across the map, taking down the trade route, while the Abus are over there, on the other side of the map, desperately trying to avoid Macehualtin focus fire while being chased by Janeys and/or Coyote Runners and even the Warchief in melee (slowing them down).

    Aztecs now age up faster. (nice Aztec advantage)

    Indeed. It means I have even less time to get Abus Guns in amounts that won't just get focus fired to death in seconds. When your Aztec opponent ages before you, and you've aged at 3:55, it's trouble.

    If it ever gets started in earnest, Aztec ERK spam will be extremely hard to stop. (Difficult to get there, but extremely powerful.)

    Hard? Honestly, Joe, if it gets to that point, you might as well resign. It doesn't get "hard", it gets impossible.

    Furthermore, Ottos beat Aztecs in the statistics for Lt. Col+ (by a not-huge margin of 153-143.)

    Consider how huge a change this is from 1.02 ...

    Isn't abus doing 50% more damage against the puma spearman and the JPK a boost as well? A 50% increase in damage is always going to be a factor.

    It should be, but it isn't in practice. The units most likely seen in combat (not TP raiding or base destruction) are those unaffected by that extra damage.

    Actually, one time I had an Aztec player rush me with something like 15 Pumas and 20 Macehualtin, but the time I had 5 Abus Guns and 15 Jans out. So few Jans because, once again, I rushed to get Abus while getting my trade route up.

    Guess what happened? It was a slaughter. I was able to kill only a few Pumas with my Abus before they were on top of 'em. I tried to use the Jans against them as if they were cavalry (putting some in melee mode to slow them down, while focus firing with another half), but that just gave Macehualtin the opportunity to deal damage uncontested.
    When the Abus were dead, the Pumas went after my foundry and I never got another batch of Abus out. And yes, I did try to save it by attacking the Pumas with my surviving Jans. They died to the Macehualtin before they were able to kill the Pumas.

    I used Minutemen then, as a last ditch effort, but these were quickly overwhelmed by the Macehualtin while only killing a few Pumas. At the end, I had no army, no foundry, my barracks was being taken down, he still had some 20 Macehualtin, still had 5 Pumas surviving and more Pumas coming.

    You tell me, how am I supposed to deal with that? If I don't spend resources establishing the trade route, I can't possibly keep up economically and will just die later anyway. If I TP boom, I die to the surprisingly powerful Aztec rush.
    I can't possibly get enough Abus out fast enough because they require a seperate, 300 wood production center, I have no Abus shipments AND they take forever to train. Oh and I need a crapload of pop space for 'em too.

    I don't follow -- Puma spearmen get destroyed by janissaries and 5 Janeys (from the card) will lose to 5 jans.

    "Counter" in this case was reference to whether they get a damage bonus against those units.

    Macehualtins counter janissaries for only one reason -- superior range. If they get close enough for the jans to actually hit them back, they lose. It's quite disheartening when you see this happen, but fortunately it can usually be avoided.

    Yet this never happens, at least to me, because there are always other units around. Janeys, Jaguars, Coyote Runners and even Pumas. It is never just a straight up fight of Jans against Macehualtin. And it takes place BEFORE I can even have Abus out. I can have some Hussars out, but they serve absolutely no point whatsoever, as they get killed by Pumas way faster than they kill anything themselves.

    That's why lots of janissaries screening for a healthy number of abus guns is going to beat anything the Aztec has.

    Show me a way to get a "healthy number" of Abus Guns out quickly enough, and I'll stop putting Aztec on a pedestal.


    P.S.
    And man did this thread get off it's initial topic ...


    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    Voltiguer
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-07 01:38 PM EDT (US)     86 / 117       
    I will say it again, I dont understand how a fast Aztec rush can be a big problem for Ottomans:

    He has three options:

    -Fully going for your trade route with his whole army
    In that case I have time to make around 10 abus 20 jans which pwns every age2 combo aztecs can field

    -Fully going for my base with siege, maces or whatever
    In that case I camp between buildings and put jans in melee infront of my Abus+call MM. His whole army gets beaten at range by abus, and my rax+foundry behind TC keep making units cos my trade route is untouched. He might even beat my army+ MM once, but then new units come out and its gg. He also cant just siege my buildings cos abus+jans own pumas fast then

    -Going after my base with maces or whatever, while sieging my tps with pumas/JKs etc
    In that case his army at my base is no threat and is beaten back easily. I might even lose 2 out of 3 tps, but thats only 300w compared to his whole dead army and the pumas getting pwned quikly by jan/abus.

    Ender_Ward
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-07 02:26 PM EDT (US)     87 / 117       
    I will say it again, I dont understand how a fast Aztec rush can be a big problem for Ottomans
    That's because you haven't yet faced one in 1.03. Hell you don't even play Ottomans anymore, so you don't even have an opportunity to face one.

    -Going after my base with maces or whatever, while sieging my tps with pumas/JKs etc
    In that case his army at my base is no threat and is beaten back easily. I might even lose 2 out of 3 tps, but thats only 300w compared to his whole dead army and the pumas getting pwned quikly by jan/abus.
    This is the version that usually takes place. Except that Pumas are enough to take down the entire trade route very quickly (and so the BB Jaguars are a part of the assault on your base).

    I want to know how "his army in your base poses no threat and is easily beaten back", when you are facing a bunch of Macehualtin and 3 Jags/5 Janeys and the Warchief before you have any Abus and 10-15 (at best) Jans?

    Minutemen? You don't have 150 gold just sitting there if you're making Abus Guns and Jans.

    Can you get it through your head that the rush hits before you have Abus out? If you went foundry first, even, you'll have 5 out by the time ~20 Macehualtin come and they can't do crap anymore in 1.03?

    Can you comprehend that the low amounts of Abus you have now no longer "own" his entire army? That they simply get focus fired to death, very quickly?

    You say losing your trade route is OK as long as you defeated the army attacking your base? Is that a joke? How the hell do you intend to finance your defense against the next waves? How do you intend to stop a smart Aztec player from sending the 3 TPs card and taking the trade route for himself (happens quite often)? How are you planning to deal with the economic disparity in that case?

    And I really want to see how you're getting up the entire trade route, researching stagecoach and getting 20 Jans and 10 Abus somehow, before you're getting rushed. Where the hell are you pulling resources from, out of your arse?


    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    Voltiguer
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-07 04:08 PM EDT (US)     88 / 117       
    Ender, instead of posting about my "lacking experience" vs Aztecs all day long, could you rather give me times please?

    As far as I know, Aztecs age at like 4:00 and start makinng a unit asap. If they go pumas and ship maces, they'll be heavily housed too. Till they have 19 maces and 10 pumas, they have to invest roughly 300 wood into houses and about 1k gold/food. Then there is also 250 wood for a warhut, and building time.

    Where do they get these resources from? You hit age2 at about the same time and get a rax asap. First shipment in age2 is silkroad, then 700 (910) wood.

    As soon as the wood arrives, his 2nd batch of maces should just have arrived too. But he cant have pop for 19 maces, 10 pumas AND res for the pumas. So the earliest he can hit your base with the 19 maces and possibly 3 jags is about the same time at which your abus are 3/4 made.

    19 maces 3 bbs reach your base, you have 5 abus 5 secs later plus 15 jans. Hit and run him with abus a bit, then call MM (stall jan production for a second). Whilst, your first tp will be down and he'll be moving to your 2nd w/ pumas. 15 jans 5 abus with more abus being built and possibly 5 jans or 700g being shipped+MM wont have any problem to beat a few maces.

    What will he do whilst? When his army is dead, he'll prolly have shipped another shipment and made 5 more units (coyos? maces?). Lets say he shipped 3 tp travs and built them. At your 3rd tp, your surviving 10 abus and 17ish (5 of them shipped) jans wont have any problem to beat 10 pumas (or heck, make it 15 if u wanna) plus 5 units of his choice. Then he will have 3 tps, you only one, but he doesnt have atp, so his tps die quikly, you rebuild yours and his units coming out in batches of 5, are inferior to yours anyway. gg

    I've played some pretty high rated aztec players (at that time) and beaten them easily. In 1.02 it was a cakewalk, and I fail to see how abus' worsened performance vs maces (which DIE to hussars and which will be useless for the fast rushes you fear cos he needs siege 4 the tps) has made that matchup so "hard" for you.

    Find an equal skilled Aztec player for me, give me 3 decent tp maps and I'll beat him 3-0 with ottos.

    PS: incase you dont know, abus outrange maces so use that to your advantage.

    [This message has been edited by Voltiguer (edited 04-29-2007 @ 04:09 PM).]

    Ender_Ward
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-07 04:50 PM EDT (US)     89 / 117       
    *sigh*
    I already gave times in three different threads (at least), but here we go again:

    Rushing Aztec in 1.03 age before 4:00, earlier than you do as Ottoman (particularly if you used ATP or trickle as first card).

    You're going to see the first 10 Macehualtin (shipment), Warchief and 3 Jaguar Knights before 5:00. You're going to have 5 Jans, 10 if you used the 5 Jan card, to deal with them.

    Their second shipment is 700 wood which solves their housing problems for quite a long while and lets them quickly train more Macehualtin to add those initial 10.

    You will not have a foundry up unless you went with it first and not barracks, in which case your 4-5 Abus will indeed be about 3/4 of the way done. When they come out, they will be focus fired to death by the Macehualtin (who's numbers have grown now) while being chased and slowed by BB Jags/Janeys and the Warchief.

    You will not have 150 gold for Minutemen, you're spending every last penny on Abus Guns.

    Their 3rd shipment is 6 Pumas, they train 5 more, sending these after your trade route while you're dealing with Macehualtin, Janeys and BB Jags in your base.

    Their next shipment is either 600 wood if they need more pop space/wood for more Macehualtin, 3 Warrior Priests if they got the upper hand, or 3 TPs (this one's the most annoying).

    This is all made possible by a Warrior Priest on XP and the Warchief getting double XP on treasure hunting. They may lack pop space upon arrival in Colonial, but they certainly don't lack shipments.

    So you tell me, has anyone done that to you in 1.03?

    In 1.02, this wasn't a threat, as I went foundry first and shipped 5 Jans for any early Coyotes. Those first 5 Abus, via hit and run and with TC fire help took out 3-4 their own numbers of Macehualtin if they stayed and fought, or what more likely happend they chased the Macehualtin for a while, which gave me the breathing room I needed to get Jan production up to speed. This also allowed me to save my trade route because I didn't struggle just to win at my own base.

    The difference between 1.02 and 1.03 are two fold. First is that Aztec are now aging at sub 4:00 times (some are aging as fast as 3:40), which allows them to hit you before you have ANY abus ready and very few Jans.
    Second is that Abus Guns have lost roughly half their effective ranged HP, and can no longer stand up to focus fire by infantry units.

    And that's it.

    But paper wars are easy! And yes, your lack of any experience with Aztec rushes in 1.03 is very relevant. Because everything you wrote in your previous post is how things worked in 1.02. But it's no longer the same situation.

    So go ahead, tell me dear expert. What should I be doing against this. And please do so without assuming that I somehow managed to pull 15 Jans, 150 gold for minutemen and 5 Abus out my ass, out of ... god knows where.

    How do I deal with this? I don't.
    I pray for a map with decent native light infantry and if I get it, put up a native TP ASAP and spam them + Jans the second I arrive in Colonial.
    If I have Cherokee/Klamath + Jans, it's GG Mr. Aztec.


    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    Voltiguer
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-07 05:40 PM EDT (US)     90 / 117       
    Well, what are 3 jag BBs+10 maces going to do?

    I mean seriously, you have only 5 jans, but just hide them till you have more. Whilst, TC fire owns the maces. As soon as you have 10 jans (dont ship any only later sometimes) go in. 10 jans>>> 3 jag bbs and the surviving 7ish maces by far.

    And by the time their 700w for more maces arrives, and they started training any, your foundry is up. I doubt its impossible for you to save up a measly 150 f+g and like 15 maces wont do sh1t vs 10 jans+MM+TC fire. Heck, they cant even siege so just hide your jans and wait for him to retreat!

    You said yourself that their THIRD shipment in age2 will be pumas and that they will start training pumas then, so they wont have 5 janeys that early anyway. And by the time he has his THIRD shipment you will have your SECOND (910 wood) and built a foundry already and have 5 abus already out.

    You might not believe me, but 5 abus+15 jans pwn 15-20 maces easily. Especially since you say he is attacking you, in which case you can just retreat behind the TC (he gets owned by tc fire and cant siege anyway with maces) and amass some army.

    I once played a Sioux in 1.03 who managed to take down all my tps. However, I had time to mass an army so although he also had an army, mine cost effectively pwned his np. Aztecs dont got great age2 units aswell (ARs>>>coyos aswell).

    As I said before, get me a decent Aztec at my level and I'll whoop his arse.

    Ender_Ward
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-07 06:29 PM EDT (US)     91 / 117       
    Well, what are 3 jag BBs+10 maces going to do?
    Kill your 5-10 Jans, that's what. That is, if you even have 10.

    I mean seriously, you have only 5 jans, but just hide them till you have more. Whilst, TC fire owns the maces.
    TC fire only "owns" Macehualtin if you have a minimum of 7 villager inside it. That's over half your economy idle. You can't really afford this, especially as more enemy units will continue streaming into your base. It is not a long term answer and leaves you vulnerable to getting overwhelmed by superior economy some minutes down the line.

    You said yourself that their THIRD shipment in age2 will be pumas and that they will start training pumas then, so they wont have 5 janeys that early anyway. And by the time he has his THIRD shipment you will have your SECOND (910 wood) and built a foundry already and have 5 abus already out.
    Where am I getting the GOLD for Abus Guns when my villagers are garrisoned? When I just spent 150 on Minutemen? I need 500 just for the first batch. It takes ages to get Silk Road, 700 wood and then 700 gold. And then you need to actually be able to collect the crates safely while your Jans are hiding somewhere as you advise.

    You might not believe me, but 5 abus+15 jans pwn 15-20 maces easily.
    Of course they do. That's not in question. I'm not seeing how you're getting those forces out, though. You don't have either the shipment crates or the locally gathered resources for them (as your villagers spend half the time running around or garrisoned), and even your trade route won't be generating resources until about 6:00 into the game (assuming it stays up).

    I once played a Sioux in 1.03 who managed to take down all my tps. However, I had time to mass an army so although he also had an army, mine cost effectively pwned his np.
    I can't imagine winning with my entire trade route destroyed (and likely even replaced) unless the player is far below me in skill level.

    As I said before, get me a decent Aztec at my level and I'll whoop his arse.
    You don't need me for that ...


    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    Adam42
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-30-07 11:23 AM EDT (US)     92 / 117       
    I think an ender (aztec) vs doppel (otto) game is in order.
    Voltiguer
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-30-07 11:28 AM EDT (US)     93 / 117       
    Wait, you seem to forget that Ottos age at 4:00 or earlier and that you can research stagecoach ~5-10 secs after you reached age2 (at least thats what I do) and stagecoach certainly doesnt take 2 mins to be researched, lol.
    Adam42
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-30-07 11:59 AM EDT (US)     94 / 117       
    I don't see how aztec can beat otto on equal skill. Go first card ATP, then silk road then 700 wood. Build a foundry first, research stagecoach right away and start training abus. You will have enough gold for 5 abus and MM, and if he goes for 10 mace+3jags OR 5 janeys and attacks your base, you can garrison settlers, call minutemen and push him back. you'd have 5 abus+minutemen+TC fire, if you focus all that on the 5 janeys or 3 jags you'll kill em easily.

    If he goes for your atps, which take ages to get down, by the time he does get em down, you have a large force of jan/abus which he won't be able to beat and have recieved 910food or gold plus some res from tps. You can push him back and rebuild all tps for a measley 150w each which is nothing when you have sent silk road. If he's send the 3 tp card while taking your tps down, just take down his tps..

    DonOFCassador
    Banned
    posted 04-30-07 12:00 PM EDT (US)     95 / 117       
    Please expalane why you call him Dopple.
    But if that game ever happens I want to see it.
    Ender(Aztecs) do you really think you can beat Dopple(Ottos).
    Or does Dopple suck at them?

    [This message has been edited by DonOFCassador (edited 04-30-2007 @ 12:03 PM).]

    Ender_Ward
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-30-07 12:49 PM EDT (US)     96 / 117       
    I think an ender (aztec) vs doppel (otto) game is in order.

    Ender has no experience in using Aztecs, only fighting against them. Dopple has plenty of experience with Ottomans. So what would be the point of such a game?
    Dopple needs to play an Aztec of his own level, who's actually experienced with the civ.

    Wait, you seem to forget that Ottos age at 4:00 or earlier and that you can research stagecoach ~5-10 secs after you reached age2 (at least thats what I do) and stagecoach certainly doesnt take 2 mins to be researched, lol.

    I didn't forget anything about when Ottomans age up. *rolls eyes*
    No need to lecture me on how to get a stagecoach TP boom going, I bleeding pioneered the idea of using the 400 age up wood for that purpose, remember? Sheesh ...
    And stagecoach itself takes a minute and a half to research, then it takes at least one run through to pay back the 400 resources you invested into it. Which is why, as I said, you don't see payback from the trade route until roughly 6 minutes into the game.

    I don't see how aztec can beat otto on equal skill. Go first card ATP, then silk road then 700 wood. Build a foundry first, research stagecoach right away and start training abus. You will have enough gold for 5 abus and MM, and if he goes for 10 mace+3jags OR 5 janeys and attacks your base, you can garrison settlers, call minutemen and push him back. you'd have 5 abus+minutemen+TC fire, if you focus all that on the 5 janeys or 3 jags you'll kill em easily.
    I just love armchair generals ...

    Let me explain, from first hand experience what actually takes place in practice.

    If you're waiting for Silk Road then 700 wood to get your foundary and housing up, you won't be doing so until 5:20 into the game, since each shipment takes 40 seconds assuming absolutely no wait time between them. Take a very generous 15 seconds to get a Foundry up, and you now need another 45 seconds to even get the first batch of Abus Guns out. That puts you into 6+ minutes into the game.
    You'll get hit with the first 10 Macehualtin and 3 Jaguars before you have any military building up. Which means garrisoning, which means even less resource income. Worse yet, it can mean the Macehualtin go and hunt down your explorer, stopping the TP boom.

    If you're using the 300 of the 400 age up wood for the foundry, you need to chop wood for stagecoach and chop yet more for housing (especially if you didn't get a 500 wood start, as happens 2/3 of the time). Considering that you have a whopping 10-11 villagers to work with, the wood choppers leave you with very few food/gold gatherers.
    You will not have the resources for minutemen. You'll barely have the necessary food for stagecoach + Abus Guns, and you'll need all the gold you've got to get the first 5 Abus out just in time.

    The only VIABLE way to go with early Abus that I found is to NOT chop any wood in transition to Colonial, to use the entire 400 age up wood on Foundry and a house, then send 700 wood FIRST and only then send Silk Road. Until it arrives, only collecting enough wood from the crates so they don't deplete, and will increase once the card takes effect. With that 910 wood you can then get your barracks, your stagecoach and more housing up. Then you send 700 (910) gold and 700 (910) food.

    This approach gives you the opportunity to have Abus almost out by the time the first rushing forces appear. However, it leaves you vulnerable to Aztecs who lead with Pumas, Janeys or Coyote Runners, instead of Jaguars. And then add Macehualtin quickly. Especially the Pumas who (while taking losses) will chase down and kill your 5 Abus and then take down your foundry. You will not kill 11 Pumas with 5 Abus no matter how good your micro is, because of that bloody minimum range. If these were 6-7 Skirmishers, there would be no problem, but these are Abus Guns.

    This approach also leaves you vulnerable to pure Macehualtin with the Warchief in melee slowing down your Abus. 20 Macehualtin defeat 5 Abus easy, in 1.03, through focus fire. Your next 5 Abus come out, his next batch of Macehualtin arrive as well (only now he'll add melee units to the mix as well from shipments of BBs). Abus just train too slow to overcome the disparity in numbers.

    And this is why I pray for native LI. I can have the native ATP up before or shortly after arriving in Colonial. I can start training them right away, and they train quickly. They're relatively cheap and they don't have the minimum range that gets them slaughtered by melee units.

    If I got 10 Cherokee/Klamath out by the time the first Macehualtin show up, life is good.

    If he goes for your atps, which take ages to get down

    LOL! Ages? You seem to have forgotten how good Puma Spearmen siege is. These aren't Muskets or Janissaries.
    It takes 11 Pumas (6 shipment, 5 trained) just 30 seconds to take down an ATP. That's after losing one Puma in the process. Your entire 3-4 TP trade route will be down in roughly two minutes (less if any more units, such as converted guardians, help out). That's hardly enough time to amass a huge army, especially if your base is under constant harassment from Macehualtin, Jaguars, Janeys or even Coyotes sometimes.

    You can push him back and rebuild all tps for a measley 150w each which is nothing when you have sent silk road.

    This is such a shortsighted view. Each destroyed TP means lost resources. Not just the 150w it cost you to build it in the first place, not just the additional 150w that'll cost you to rebuild it, but also the resources you didn't get because the destroyed TP wasn't gathering anything, until you have rebuilt it. This is after you invested in stagecoach.

    If he's send the 3 tp card while taking your tps down, just take down his tps..

    This assumes you have the upper hand, the breathing room and the opportunity to go after his trade posts uncontested.

    If you're fighting while his 3 TP card auto builds the trade route for his benefit (he doesn't even need the Warchief to be involved), you're not only losing out on resources you should have been gaining, but he's benefitting from the trade route now, from the stagecoach you paid for.

    It's a lot easier said than done, to take back your trade route while your economy is in the crapper (without your TPs) and his is prospering. Often losing your trade route and having it replaced means you've lost the game already. You no longer have the 1.02 super human killing machines (which they never actually were) to help you overcome the economic disparity.


    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    Adam42
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-30-07 03:38 PM EDT (US)     97 / 117       
    I just love armchair generals ...

    Let me explain, from first hand experience what actually takes place in practice.

    You say that like i have never played ottomans. I have plenty of experience playing them, so don't lecture me about how I don't know what I'm talking about.

    You build a foundry with starting wood+quartermaster wood, plus you chop some yourself, you can get 5 abus in time this way. Assuming you have a 400wood start, you need to chop 100 by the time you hit colonial for stagecoach, and another 100 for a house by 5:20-30. Its a very tight squeeze but you can do it, stagecoach researched at about 5:15 will help you get MM.

    Your method of sending 700 wood first works, but you have missed out on 210 wood from not sending silkroad first. The problem with the one you mention is stagecoach comes later. If he decides not to attack, your tp boom starts much later.

    LOL! Ages? You seem to have forgotten how good Puma Spearmen siege is. These aren't Muskets or Janissaries.
    heh, if he goes for puma that means less for units that can actually fight well (before you say puma beat abus, think again - abus kill in 3 shots, jans slow down the puma as a meatshield). 2 minutes is ample time to make a big enough mass of jan/abus to beat him, especially if he's been building puma. Then once you can push him back, time to replace all your trade route again for a very cheap price.

    This is such a shortsighted view. Each destroyed TP means lost resources. Not just the 150w it cost you to build it in the first place, not just the additional 150w that'll cost you to rebuild it, but also the resources you didn't get because the destroyed TP wasn't gathering anything, until you have rebuilt it. This is after you invested in stagecoach.
    Of course it's a disadvantage to have your trade route taken down, but while he has been taking it down you've been sending 910g/f shipments along with getting res from the tps. And pumping from one rax and art foundry. Send 710wood and rebuild them while sitting on your army. You will have the upper hand... otto military>aztec military.

    Doesn't matter if you don't have tps now, cause your super shipments have funded yourself a good army.

    EDIT: another thing, of the aztec players you've played in the last month and 10 days, you've lost 2 games to aztec, both games went to 40+ minutes, which doesn't really have much relevance to what we're talking about now.

    [This message has been edited by Adam42 (edited 04-30-2007 @ 03:41 PM).]

    Voltiguer
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-30-07 03:43 PM EDT (US)     98 / 117       
    Well, if a player like LieS who you yourself called a better player than you says that Aztecs cant beat decent ottomans in age2, it should be right.

    Why else would he try FF vs me in 1.03 twice in a row and lose both games?

    Players who are better than both of us, Ender, have often enough said that Ottomans>>>Aztecs so I fail to see your point.

    Ill once again try to do some paper wars with you: You say first age2 shipment for them is 10 maces. By the time it arrives+3 jag BBs, you have recieved silkroad.

    You also have 5 jans, 5 in queue. He enters your base and you hide jans somewhere. He leaves after the TC shot him a few times. Stagecoach is now roughly halfways or more researched.

    His next shipment is 700w. Yours aswell. By the time he has 5 more maces trained, you have a foundry up. 15 maces+3 jag BBs go for your base. You have 10 jans. Hide them. Its now about 5:30ish or so. Either he starts sieging something or he leaves. Its pointless for him to just sit there getti9ng shot by the TC. If he hasnt left after about 5-10 seconds and a bit, go in with your 10 jans and attack him. He will either run away or lose.

    You have about 2 abus in the queue, stagecoach is researched and you can afford 5 abus. You queue some new abus and ship 700g. You now have 15 jans and 5 abus. Whilst, he has been going in and out for a bit, but as soon as he sees your abus his 20ish maces stay away. He now has 11 pumas, six of them shipped, your 700g is almost there. Pumas start sieiging. When you have 20 jans 10 abus your first tp is down.

    He moves to the second TP. His maces cant harras you anymore, so you go out of your base and face his army. He now has roughly 11 pumas, 20ish maces, 3 bbs and 5 units of his chouice (pumas, maces or coyos) vs your 20ish jans 10ish abus. Your 2nd TP is down or at least halfways. You have 5 jans and abus in queue.

    Either he retreats, you chase and repair/rebuild TP(s) or he stays, fights, gets hit and run to death and dies.

    If he retreats, he'll be recieving his next shipment soon. Lets just say he shipped 7 (?) coyos and trained another 5. Now he has 11 pumas, 20 maces, 17 coyos vs your ~25 jans, 15 abus more in queue. You dont need to be a genius to know that some basic micro owns his army. Take down his WH and gg. If he then chooses to build a new one in bhis base, he has no more map control nor enough time to amass army. If he somehow gets enough res for age3, he will have 35+ jans and 25+ abus in his base by the time he ages up.

    Good game, eh?

    Ender_Ward
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-30-07 04:34 PM EDT (US)     99 / 117       
    You say that like i have never played ottomans. I have plenty of experience playing them, so don't lecture me about how I don't know what I'm talking about.

    How many Aztec rushes have you fended off, as Ottoman, in 1.03?

    As Many as Dopple, here, I'm fairly certain (read: none).

    You build a foundry with starting wood+quartermaster wood, plus you chop some yourself, you can get 5 abus in time this way. Assuming you have a 400wood start, you need to chop 100 by the time you hit colonial for stagecoach, and another 100 for a house by 5:20-30. Its a very tight squeeze but you can do it, stagecoach researched at about 5:15 will help you get MM.

    The starting wood is already used up before you're in Colonial. In a 400 wood start you've used 300 of it on two ATPs and 100 of it on a house. In a 33% likelyhood of a 500 wood start, you've used 450 on 3 ATPs and chopped another 50 for a house. Or you've only built 2 ATPs, 2 houses and did not chop at all. Either way, that wood is spent.

    It's not just a tight squeeze, it's one that will leave you with barely any food and gold, because one more time, you're operating on 10-11 villagers! These aren't Dutch with their 16-17 villager counts.
    You wanna chop 200 wood in time, you'll need a minimum of 5 of them on wood. That leaves you with a whopping 5-6 villagers to get your required food and gold. Good luck with that.

    And stagecoach is not ready until 5:30 at the best of times.

    Your method of sending 700 wood first works, but you have missed out on 210 wood from not sending silkroad first. The problem with the one you mention is stagecoach comes later. If he decides not to attack, your tp boom starts much later.

    No wood is lost. Read, please, what I'm actually writing. You don't fully collect the crates. You leave them partially gathered until Silk Road takes effect and THEN you finish collecting them. I even do that with the 400 age up wood sometimes when I FF, so it becomes 520 wood instead.

    heh, if he goes for puma that means less for units that can actually fight well (before you say puma beat abus, think again - abus kill in 3 shots, jans slow down the puma as a meatshield).

    Oi vey ...

    It is not the massive effort you think it is for an Aztec player to get his Pumas out. Ship 6, train 5. Easy as hell.
    And where the hell are the Jans coming from, that are supposed to slow down the Pumas, if I went foundry first? They aren't out in time. If you got 5 out from a barracks in time or from a shipment, they get killed very quickly by even 10 Macehualtin (of course there's usually more) and do not slow down the Pumas for long.
    See, actually doing alot of rush defenses against Aztec I know what happens in reality when nearly defenseless Abus face Puma Spearmen. You need a meatshield against them, just as you need one against Warclubs + Warchief and against Rodeleros. And a meatshield you don't have at that point in time.

    Now this is, ofcourse, if the Aztec player leads with Pumas and Macehualtin, attacking your base. This doesn't actually happen often. What does happen is he goes for your base with Macehualtin and with the Pumas after the trade route. Are you going to tell me you can somehow split your 5 Abus and maybe 5 Jans to go protect both? Or are you gonna let your villagers sit in the TC not gathering a thing as you take your measly force to protect your trade route?

    2 minutes is ample time to make a big enough mass of jan/abus to beat him, especially if he's been building puma ...
    Of course it's a disadvantage to have your trade route taken down, but while he has been taking it down you've been sending 910g/f shipments along with getting res from the tps. And pumping from one rax and art foundry. Send 710wood and rebuild them while sitting on your army.

    Trained with what resources?
    You're not Spanish, your shipments aren't pouring in and you don't even have a trade route anymore to switch to XP mode. And the first food or gold crate is already your 4th shipment. Your villagers are spending half their time garrisoned and not generating resources.
    You only get, at best, 1700 food out of your two food crates, which will take a while to come. You get, at best, 1700 gold out of your two crates that will also take an eternity to arrive. These shipments are nice and all, but they'll never keep up with the Aztec economic growth. Especially when you've lost your equalizer, the trade route.

    Those "super shipments" require XP first and time second. And you're short on both.

    EDIT: another thing, of the aztec players you've played in the last month and 10 days, you've lost 2 games to aztec, both games went to 40+ minutes, which doesn't really have much relevance to what we're talking about now.

    Do you realize that 9/10 of my games don't show up on those stats because they never actually finish (or in the case of most, even get off the ground)? The games you see on my ELO page are the ones that actually go to the "You Are Victorious" or "You Abandon Your Colony" screen.

    I have more experience barely fighting off (with the standard Ottoman military), breezing through them with native LI, or losing to Aztec rushes, in 1.03, than I'd like.

    ~~~

    And at this point both you and Dopple are engaging in pure paper wars, lacking any experience with Aztec rushes in 1.03. You can twist this as much as you like, but it's a fact. And frankly I'm tired to death of it. I won't even bother replying to Dopple as he's just repeating the same stuff from previous posts.

    When I see you people post a game where you do what you advise in practice, then I'll listen.


    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    Voltiguer
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-30-07 04:46 PM EDT (US)     100 / 117       
    I hate talking about this rating stuff, but since you keep talking about my lacking experience vs Aztecs I can tell you one thing:

    I have beaten one player who is and was back then higher rated than you ever were before: "König_Ludwig".

    He played exclusively Aztecs back then and the patch was 1.03.

    He did almost exactly what you "fear": Wreck my trade route with pumas, use bbs+coyos or whatever to slow down my army and harras my base with early maces. I had to play a bit smart to survive to that point, but as soon as I had 20+ jans and 10+ abus it was gg. Yes, I had only 1 tp for some time, and yes, he had 3 tps, but I owned his army before he could get anything out of his tps.

    Btw, you are talking as if maces were uber villager killers or siegers, when they really arent. Heck wtf are 10 maces going to DO in your base?! Just put 1-2 vills in the tc to scare him away, and he cant do anything. Siege? rofl. And its not like I cant send vills to gather elsewhere either, he doesnt have a speed 8.1 Warchief @@

    And even if the maces meet some villagers, do you know how much damage they do to them? Its pathetic.

    I once played vs "Wormwood" in QS aswell, him using Aztecs (hes 2100+ too) and he did puma rush+mace shipments to take down my tps, then he switched to maces+coyos. Yes, I did lose 2 out of 3 tps. Did it matter? No. Because I had time to amass army. gg

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