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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Iroquois the lamest civ ever made
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Topic Subject:Iroquois the lamest civ ever made
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MockHamill
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 04:03 PM EDT (US)         
I have nothing but contempt for this civ and those that are still abusing it. Playing Iroquois requires absolutely no skill at all. As a former Iroquois player I know for a fact just how lame and OP this civ is. People who think it is just GreatHouse that needs to be nerfed do not understand the civ at all.

Iro advantages:
- Free map control.
- Best Warchief in the game.
- Most OP fire pit dance in the game Travois dance means that you do not have to collect any wood for farms, warhuts or Plantations.
- Very strong and fast rush. Iroquois are actually very strong in colonial, it is just that their FF is even more OP.
- Requires no flexibility at all the Iroquois player can use the same strategy in every game. However, the heterosexual player has to read the Iroquois player perfectly to even have a chance.
- Best Turtle in the game. 3 Great House TC + firepit + agrarian ways =GG.
- Best skirmisher in the game. Forest prowler + Iro Warchief > all other skrims.
- Skirmisher that can become invisible = legal map hack + best villager killer in the game. EK actually requires a card to become a good villager killer, FP requires nothing at all.
- Extremely strong FI. 10 free villagers when you FI mean that you suddenly get back most of the economy that you sacrificed for the FI.
- Extremely strong late game. Light cannon + Toma shield + Hussars that cost no gold = GG.

Iro disadvantages
- No falconets.

I am not sure I even want to play this game any more. At least not until the next patch. Iroquois are so ridiculously OP it makes me sick. I do not care that Spain may be stronger at the 2100+ level. For 99% of the players using Iroquois is a huge advantage, and playing against them is a huge disadvantage.

In order to balance Iroquois I suggest the following:
- Either remove the starting Travois or let them start with 100 less wood.
- Great House changed to +50% attack.
- Travois dance nerfed so that it takes 20% more time to spawn the travois.
- Light cannons range changed to 30.

AuthorReplies:
Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 04:06 PM EDT (US)     1 / 82       
- Change the town dance card.

PS Kanyas actually suck! Iro have no good (other than GH) Age 3 cannon counter.

That's all the disadvantages I can think of.


My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
James Lock
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 04:36 PM EDT (US)     2 / 82       
The reason people blame Great House above other reasons is that they are all killing Iroquois players easily until they use their great houses. You arer winning against an Iroquois player, than he builds those great houses and suddenly there's not much you can do.

Light cannons are annoying...


Thanks to all those that signed the petition to get me unbanned here.
And special thanks to smashnbash for making it.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 04:42 PM EDT (US)     3 / 82       
i wouldnt argue that iro is very strong, i think they are one of the best 3 in this patch, but i think you are slightly over-stating their power.

- Free map control.

the only true free one is possibly the first tavios. well it is a good advantage and i hate it, it doesnt exactly control the whole map, every other travios either cost them VS to dance, or come from age up where they dont get as good politicians as euros (wise woman VS quatermaster?)

- Very strong and fast rush. Iroquois are actually very strong in colonial, it is just that their FF is even more OP.

iro rush is not strong, really it is not. I mean all you really get from it it 11 fast tomas, after that its just a normal muskts rush that any euro civ can pull off. while it is decent enough to kill someone without decent defense, it is not the same class of jan rush or strelet rush.


- Best Turtle in the game. 3 Great House TC + firepit + agrarian ways =GG.

the problem with iro turtle, if you actually tried it against decent players, is that you opponent goes semi-FI and bombard you with mortars, while his eco is weaker, he has stronger units, and you will have a very hard time killing his mortars if you didnt go into age4 quickly - which you wouldnt have done if you choose to turtle boom with ag ways + farm/plantations.

- Skirmisher that can become invisible = legal map hack + best villager killer in the game. EK actually requires a card to become a good villager killer, FP requires nothing at all.

while this is good, i generally only lose 1~2 vils per game to the invisibles, stealth requires a lot of effort in mid game its just not worth it, i dont see any iro use stealth non-stop. i fear ruthless ERK a lot more, because i have nothing to kill them when they come for my villagers.

- Extremely strong late game. Light cannon + Toma shield + Hussars that cost no gold = GG.

that only last till the euro player reaches his own late game, native late game are muich weaker than euros it is a bit crazy, their plantations only produce about 60% of what euro's do, aztec have the best late game eco out of the natives yet still cant catch up with euros.

tomas suffer same problem most native units suuffer - lack of upgrades in late game, euro core infantry generally get 60% from vet + RG, 30% from cards, then 10% from AA.

I agree with other bits that i didnt quote, to an extend.

you also have to realise iro have some weaknesses as well:

1~2 less starting vil compared to euros
lack of decent cavalry
very gold heavy ranged cavalry, becomes un-cost-effictive once mines run out.
lack of canon counter in age3
weak late game eco

as for the iro nerf, as many had said in the past GH nerf is all thats needed.

starting wood has to stay because longhouse cost more than 100 wood and become unbuildable with 100 wood start. (should british have some starts with just 100 wood?)

Travois dance shouldnt recieve a plain nerf, because that'd make it not feasible for some buildings, and their point is to make buildings cheaper. instead travios dance should change into 3 types - militery building , farm and plantation, with dancing time adjusted, still at an advantage than chopping wood but not as broken and one has to plan ahead before the dance. (make the starting travios a farm travios would actually solve a lot of the problems)

Light cannons range shouldnt change, it has to be able to shoot at culverins other wise 5 culverins own all LC. if a nerf is needed, it is better to reduce infantry damage, making it a culv+mortar, instead of culv+mortar+falc.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 04-28-2007 @ 04:45 PM).]

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 05:06 PM EDT (US)     4 / 82       
like i always say, blockhouses/warhuts/outposts are the illusion of map control. Take away iros first trav and you solve nothing - only destroy their uniqueness.

The reason iro is strong is for predominantly these 2 reasons:
-the COMBINATION of gh/improved buildings and town dance. That is, you have to have both of them for either to be worthwhile really. GH by themselves are relatively easy to take down, but town dance stacks on top of the +100% attack and the +40% hp.

-the COMBINATION of trav dance and agrarian ways. trav dance is incredibly cost efficient and you don't even need map control for wood, you can go to a fully sustainable (farm/plant) eco in almost no time at all, although it wouldn't be that great if agrarian ways didn't upgrade farms/plants to be almost as fast as hunt/mine allowing iro to compete economically.

-Vills' ability to build TCs combined with iro's lightning fast FF time. If only wc could build TC you wouldn't see iro getting one gh knocked down and another one built in 15 seconds at the other side of the base. their ff time allows all GH to be up before another FFer (e.g. spain) to attack).

So i think you basically gotta nerf one of those things. Increasing trav dance time, decreasing town dance's effect and removing vills' ability to build TCs are the best ones I think. Agrarian ways and GH itself I don't think need changing.

Trav dance definitely needs changing. Atm, one trav using trav dance is 550VS. If you had those vills on wood you'd get just over 250 wood.

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 05:29 PM EDT (US)     5 / 82       
Trav dance definitely needs changing. Atm, one trav using trav dance is 550VS. If you had those vills on wood you'd get just over 250 wood.


no, its 340~275 vs, depending on how many vils, (the more the less vs).

so as along as you dont build longhouse and market, everything else are profit.

it should change to:

current travios stays the same but can only build militery buildings
farm travios cost 450~400 VS
plantation travios cost 900~800VS

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 04-28-2007 @ 05:32 PM).]

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 05:47 PM EDT (US)     6 / 82       
You sure? I thought last time I looked 25 vills gave you a trav every 22 seconds. Hmm i might be wrong.
Hockeystar
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 05:56 PM EDT (US)     7 / 82       
Compare Musket Riders to dragoons and you will shocked how good musket riders are.

[This message has been edited by Hockeystar (edited 04-28-2007 @ 05:57 PM).]

CookieCrisp13
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 06:25 PM EDT (US)     8 / 82       
My friend played iamgrunt, as ottos vs iamgrunt being an iriqoi. Well needless to say he would have won had he not lagged out, but he took down THREE great houses with his jannies in that game.

200 wood + 100% attack = MAJOR ADVANTAGE.
(i am not sure if the game is still up but his name was maqa)


Proud winner of the FFA Winter Round '07!
[Judgε][Epic Thread]
My Vods:[One] [Two][Three][Four]
"with all the bling on a mandsabar you could win the game by paying the enemy to resign." IL
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 06:33 PM EDT (US)     9 / 82       
You sure? I thought last time I looked 25 vills gave you a trav every 22 seconds. Hmm i might be wrong.

thats dog soilders.

Compare Musket Riders to dragoons and you will shocked how good musket riders are.

apart from they get extra 5% upgrade in fortress, and is evened out by less 5% in industrial, they are balanced to goons, 2.5% more HP and 10% less attack for slightly less cost.

they become worse in late game as gold for euro civs are much cheaper than natives.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 04-28-2007 @ 06:36 PM).]

Eicho
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 06:56 PM EDT (US)     10 / 82       
I think all that iro needs is:

- maximum villagers that can construct a TC is 3-5

- Great House = 300 wood TC, +80% attak.

- Travois Dance +15% time to spawn travois.

i thinks thats ALL.

the heterosexual player has to read the Iroquois player perfectly to even have a chance.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Voltiguer
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 07:00 PM EDT (US)     11 / 82       
That crackshot needs a nerf too. It just is WRONG if one stupid crackshot pwns 4 abus guns from age up (w/o stagger mode but still).

Also, losing 5-6 skirms to it sux. Now try maces/strels...

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 07:17 PM EDT (US)     12 / 82       
yes, i would have to agree that iro is probably the lamest civ that has existed in aoeIII/TWC so far.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

Ossian
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 11:50 PM EDT (US)     13 / 82       
That crackshot needs a nerf too. It just is WRONG if one stupid crackshot pwns 4 abus guns from age up (w/o stagger mode but still).

Also, losing 5-6 skirms to it sux. Now try maces/strels...

Really would take sioux WC cannon killing ability over crack shot..
1500-2000 resources dead in 1-2 swings is awesome.

Nerf the Eagle eye shot about 10-20 seconds and it's fair game.


*WINDOWS CRITICAL ERROR 19891126*
Product ID: Ossian Discontinued
Contact your network admin for more details
about this special edition of player...

Allthough cetans are darker, did you know that if you read the word 'cetan' as a dutch word, that you get the same sound as when reading 'satan' in english.-Furby Killer
JarlNick
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 00:12 AM EDT (US)     14 / 82       
This isn't exactly a revelation is it....?

ESO: JarlNick

Want to talk OP? AOE3 Abus Guns at release were nightmares. But I knew how to take care of them! Beware my Culverins you artillery bastards! Oh wait...- MNBob

Sporting_Lisbon
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 04:03 AM EDT (US)     15 / 82       
Don't worry about iro. In 1.04 they will be so nerfed that they will just be another broken civ -.-
micky_tee
Skirmisher
(id: micky_t)
posted 04-29-07 04:34 AM EDT (US)     16 / 82       
However, the heterosexual player has to read the Iroquois player perfectly to even have a chance.


hahahahaahah


armyballer - Another 3v3, this time my team is winning, (about an hour into it). One of the other team players admits defeat and resigns, then out of no where I get OOS message. I'm pissed, I again log onto agecommunity and see I have been given a LOSE. How did this happen?

AceOfKings - ender_ward hacked into your game and made it go OOS

Unban JamesLock
cyspur
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 06:10 AM EDT (US)     17 / 82       
where the ottos once what the iros are now?

I respect Ender & Voltiguer, not because i am a fellow otto player, nor cause i am planning to become a 2k1+, but because they know how the games' engine works


LOL@ Ender's response concerning Abus resis increased to 30%: "would be like applying a bandaid to a gashing wound."
Mark_Aurel
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 10:35 AM EDT (US)     18 / 82       
iro rush is not strong, really it is not. I mean all you really get from it it 11 fast tomas, after that its just a normal muskts rush that any euro civ can pull off.

Well, except for the fact that they can forward build on you and map control right on your secondary resources.

Oh, and except for the fact that they can use a fast age-up politician and be on you rather quicker than most euro civs can.

Oh, and except their "musketeers" have got 20% more hp. At least until you bring down their 750 hp meatshield.

Oh, and except their rush is accompanied by a guy that can shoot down a couple of your counter-infantry units right away.

But yeah, you're right. Of course, they just don't do stuff like that most of the time because it's just not as good as their FF.


<Witty signature goes here.>
Sporting_Lisbon
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 10:45 AM EDT (US)     19 / 82       
Oh, and except they have a crappy eco of 15 vills.

Oh, and except that tomas are more expensive than muskets and they have worse stats than them.

Oh, and except that the OP WC has far less than 750 hitpoints, because you must get wood treasures and xp treasures if you want to have a good rush, what means he won't last long due to focus fire.

Oh, and except that almost every civ can survive to the first attack of tomas just with some minutemen, tc fire and some crossbows. Try toma rushing first before saying it is strong and as OP as u make it sound.

Ossian
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 11:06 AM EDT (US)     20 / 82       
France doesn't even need to do anything but send MM then shoot toms with a few CDB, quite easy to beat IMO.
Also since when has native plantations been only 60% of a euro?

*WINDOWS CRITICAL ERROR 19891126*
Product ID: Ossian Discontinued
Contact your network admin for more details
about this special edition of player...

Allthough cetans are darker, did you know that if you read the word 'cetan' as a dutch word, that you get the same sound as when reading 'satan' in english.-Furby Killer
GarlicKing
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 12:04 PM EDT (US)     21 / 82       
"Really would take sioux WC cannon killing ability over crack shot..
1500-2000 resources dead in 1-2 swings is awesome."

The difference is the crackshot is completely free, whereas you have to pay for the upgrade to make the WC a cannon killing machine...

As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 04-29-07 12:04 PM EDT (US)     22 / 82       
Also since when has native plantations been only 60% of a euro?

Since native civs don't get Refinery tech at the plantation, so that industrial 30% upgrade isn't there.

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 02:40 PM EDT (US)     23 / 82       
Try toma rushing first before saying it is strong and as OP as u make it sound.

i have toma rushed, and i have been toma rushed. i assume that when u say toma rush ur talking about the 11-toma FF, since any iro would be daft to do anything in colonial for any reason other than the 11-toma FF.

it comes VERY fast if iro ages up with the messenger. 11 tomas can 1-shot a vil, and, if well-managed, they will almost always kill 2 or more vils before the rush-ee has any opposition to it whatsoever, and 2 vils is an ENORMOUS loss so early in the game. and when opposition comes in the form of minutemen, dogs, xbows, anything, the tomas can retreat to their fwd warhut which, by the way, is conveniently placed smack in the middle of the enemies secondary hunt. this means that raiding tomas will always know exactly where vils are because there is only one place for them to be. meanwhile the iro eco is happily steaming toward fort res with no disturbance. and dont try to disturb it, because there is another free warhut gaurding their extended hunts.


"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 04-29-2007 @ 03:02 PM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 03:01 PM EDT (US)     24 / 82       
Well, except for the fact that they can forward build on you and map control right on your secondary resources.

Oh, and except for the fact that they can use a fast age-up politician and be on you rather quicker than most euro civs can.

Oh, and except their "musketeers" have got 20% more hp. At least until you bring down their 750 hp meatshield.

Oh, and except their rush is accompanied by a guy that can shoot down a couple of your counter-infantry units right away.

But yeah, you're right. Of course, they just don't do stuff like that most of the time because it's just not as good as their FF.

I can say that about most good rushes, and not mention any of their weaknesses, and when i do that, it will make toma rush sound very very mid-core. but i wont bother becasue i am sure you can figure it all out yourself.

the only civ that is terribly disadvantaged against toma rush is port, often there is no way for port to save their second TC, but i think this has more to do with cover wagon build up time being badly design - it was done over 20 month ago and much of the game has changed since.

Mark_Aurel
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 03:02 PM EDT (US)     25 / 82       
Oh, and except they have a crappy eco of 15 vills.

Anyone that goes for a rush *should* have a bad econ. Otherwise, where's the balance?

Oh, and except that tomas are more expensive than muskets and they have worse stats than them.

Tomas cost about 8.33 VS more unit. You could of course pit that against the wood saved on housing, against the VS saved on making forward buildings with travois (or other buildings, for that matter), or you could take into consideration that ES balanced Tomas *with* the warchief in mind, since with him around, they have blatantly better stats than musketeers, even with their lower attack.

Oh, and except that the OP WC has far less than 750 hitpoints, because you must get wood treasures and xp treasures if you want to have a good rush, what means he won't last long due to focus fire.

Sounds like you have bad micro when treasure hunting most of all. Or make poor strategic choices. Any good player won't want him to die anyway, so the WC will usually try to sit out of enemy range anyway.

Oh, and except that almost every civ can survive to the first attack of tomas just with some minutemen, tc fire and some crossbows. Try toma rushing first before saying it is strong and as OP as u make it sound.

It's neat that you put it that way -- *almost* every civ can survive. When you put it that way, it doesn't sound too bad. You know, because almost all civs can survive the first wave.

89.3% Iro? I definitely see where you're coming from. Your extensive experience with many different civs obviously allows you to make that recommendation.

See, I'm not saying that toma rushing is that incredibly overpowered either, but it's just one of a number of excessively strong points about that ridiculous civ that nubs use to inflate their ratings.

Once ES removes their ability to make warhuts with the travois in Discovery, nerfs their warchief and his wannabe cannon shot, nerfs Great House, nerfs Town Dance, nerfs Agrarian Ways, and nerfs light cannon, then Iro might not be such an aggravating civ anymore.


<Witty signature goes here.>
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