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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Iroquois the lamest civ ever made
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Topic Subject:Iroquois the lamest civ ever made
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MockHamill
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 04:03 PM EDT (US)         
I have nothing but contempt for this civ and those that are still abusing it. Playing Iroquois requires absolutely no skill at all. As a former Iroquois player I know for a fact just how lame and OP this civ is. People who think it is just GreatHouse that needs to be nerfed do not understand the civ at all.

Iro advantages:
- Free map control.
- Best Warchief in the game.
- Most OP fire pit dance in the game Travois dance means that you do not have to collect any wood for farms, warhuts or Plantations.
- Very strong and fast rush. Iroquois are actually very strong in colonial, it is just that their FF is even more OP.
- Requires no flexibility at all the Iroquois player can use the same strategy in every game. However, the heterosexual player has to read the Iroquois player perfectly to even have a chance.
- Best Turtle in the game. 3 Great House TC + firepit + agrarian ways =GG.
- Best skirmisher in the game. Forest prowler + Iro Warchief > all other skrims.
- Skirmisher that can become invisible = legal map hack + best villager killer in the game. EK actually requires a card to become a good villager killer, FP requires nothing at all.
- Extremely strong FI. 10 free villagers when you FI mean that you suddenly get back most of the economy that you sacrificed for the FI.
- Extremely strong late game. Light cannon + Toma shield + Hussars that cost no gold = GG.

Iro disadvantages
- No falconets.

I am not sure I even want to play this game any more. At least not until the next patch. Iroquois are so ridiculously OP it makes me sick. I do not care that Spain may be stronger at the 2100+ level. For 99% of the players using Iroquois is a huge advantage, and playing against them is a huge disadvantage.

In order to balance Iroquois I suggest the following:
- Either remove the starting Travois or let them start with 100 less wood.
- Great House changed to +50% attack.
- Travois dance nerfed so that it takes 20% more time to spawn the travois.
- Light cannons range changed to 30.

AuthorReplies:
Ossian
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 03:27 PM EDT (US)     26 / 82       
Once ES removes their ability to make warhuts with the travois in Discovery, nerfs their warchief and his wannabe cannon shot, nerfs Great House, nerfs Town Dance, nerfs Agrarian Ways, and nerfs light cannon, then Iro might not be such an aggravating civ anymore.

You should be banned for such insane balance idea...
Nerf great house.. then you'll see how weak they are.


*WINDOWS CRITICAL ERROR 19891126*
Product ID: Ossian Discontinued
Contact your network admin for more details
about this special edition of player...

Allthough cetans are darker, did you know that if you read the word 'cetan' as a dutch word, that you get the same sound as when reading 'satan' in english.-Furby Killer
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 03:38 PM EDT (US)     27 / 82       
Anyone that goes for a rush *should* have a bad econ. Otherwise, where's the balance?

but they dont always, do they?

french double rax rush generally have 20 Cbd by the time their first batch of units come out (14 age up + 4 shipped + 2 more made).

dutch rush has 16 vils and 1 bank at 4:10 to support steady flow of skirms.

see the british rush in my sig, there are plenty of recs too - i get about 25 vil eco at 5:30 to support the rush.

you may argue they invest early shipment oppotunities into eco - thats exactly the point, 11 toma rush pretty much idles iro eco for a good minute or so, they are often housed and have no shipment to follow, should the 11 toma rush kill no vils and taken down no buildings, iro is in serious trouble.

there is a replay in the guns and biers strat in my sig, me as german vs a iro rusher (1900 ~ 1950 ELO), Teutonic FF owned him.

about the WC, yes he is a tank, but killing him is not impossible, even though iro players dont want him to die, most still fail to micro him constantly, so he dies in actual games, all the time. and when he does, it is a very cool 100 XP and iro cant just buy him with 100 gold. they either wait for a long time while tomas get owned by muskts, or take off 5 vils and save 100 wood to dance him back.

Roark
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 03:44 PM EDT (US)     28 / 82       
yea, ultimitsu is right. The weakness in rushing is not that a player should have to idle their eco to do it (most don't), it's that the rusher will inevitably have the disadvantage in any battles. The defender will have his tc, maybe towers, and fighting right where his military training facility is, while the rusher has to travel first from his militayr building (fewer units) and fight in the TC's shadow. The balance lies in the fact that the rusher has surprise potentially on his side and can disrupt the opponent's eco by doing this and perhaps gain an advantage. If he does not inflict enough damage then he will not gain the advantage.

ESO: Naevius
Sporting_Lisbon
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 04:08 PM EDT (US)     29 / 82       
89.3% Iro? I definitely see where you're coming from. Your extensive experience with many different civs obviously allows you to make that recommendation.

89.3% Iro RATED games. For your information, im actually playing aztec. Also, since ur saying that as if I was some kind of OP GH lamer u should have noticed that ive got three times more tomahawks as used unit than prowlers. And I do know the other civs

Mark_Aurel
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 05:35 PM EDT (US)     30 / 82       
but they dont always, do they?

french double rax rush generally have 20 Cbd by the time their first batch of units come out (14 age up + 4 shipped + 2 more made).

dutch rush has 16 vils and 1 bank at 4:10 to support steady flow of skirms.

Then -- surprise -- you can't really call it a "rush" anymore. You can call it a "power attack" or "colonial fighting" or whatever, but a "rush" is something a bit more specific. At best, you could call it a hybrid strategy.

see the british rush in my sig, there are plenty of recs too - i get about 25 vil eco at 5:30 to support the rush.

I watched one of those recs. Neat to see how an Aztec player who'd made no military units by 8 minutes died to a bunch of grenadiers and musketeers.

you may argue they invest early shipment oppotunities into eco - thats exactly the point, 11 toma rush pretty much idles iro eco for a good minute or so, they are often housed and have no shipment to follow, should the 11 toma rush kill no vils and taken down no buildings, iro is in serious trouble.

Sure.

there is a replay in the guns and biers strat in my sig, me as german vs a iro rusher (1900 ~ 1950 ELO), Teutonic FF owned him.

I watched that one as well. Saguenay, right? Pretty annoying game to watch, with how the Iro nub somehow got the huge lightbulb idea of running right into the German TC and fighting there, or his generally sucky micro.

about the WC, yes he is a tank, but killing him is not impossible, even though iro players dont want him to die, most still fail to micro him constantly, so he dies in actual games, all the time. and when he does, it is a very cool 100 XP and iro cant just buy him with 100 gold. they either wait for a long time while tomas get owned by muskts, or take off 5 vils and save 100 wood to dance him back.

I'm not in the habit of judging stuff by what "most" fail to do. Most people that play on ESO probably fail to maintain vill flow properly and might think that the Ottoman ability to maintain it without effort is somehow too good.

Of course, no one is perfect. But we don't judge what's good and not on the basis of how bad people can play. By that token, you might as well say that the Iro victim will fail to scout and never see their rush coming, because he thinks the Iro is heading straight FF (which is of course the true Iro strength; that doesn't mean their rush isn't also stronger than typical).


<Witty signature goes here.>
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 05:57 PM EDT (US)     31 / 82       
Then -- surprise -- you can't really call it a "rush" anymore. You can call it a "power attack" or "colonial fighting" or whatever, but a "rush" is something a bit more specific. At best, you could call it a hybrid strategy.

I am under the impression that attack starts from 5:30 is considered rush?

if I am not correct, please define rush for us.

I watched one of those recs. Neat to see how an Aztec player who'd made no military units by 8 minutes died to a bunch of grenadiers and musketeers.

then you need to see some more, there are plenty of recs with fighting back.

I watched that one as well. Saguenay, right? Pretty annoying game to watch, with how the Iro nub somehow got the huge lightbulb idea of running right into the German TC and fighting there, or his generally sucky micro.

it is easy to pick mistakes of the player from recordings, even 2200 players have many obvious errors in their games, let alone a 1900.

he really had no choice but to fight in my TC coverage, if he backs off, i would not chase, my goal was simply FF, and his primary goal was taking down my TC. he failed because toma rush is simply not that good.

I'm not in the habit of judging stuff by what "most" fail to do. Most people that play on ESO probably fail to maintain vill flow properly and might think that the Ottoman ability to maintain it without effort is somehow too good.

by "most people" i am not talking about majority of aoe3 community, more like most iro players who know what they doing.

but i sense this particular point is not going to go anywhere as I am sure your preception is that most good iro are capable of keeping their WC alive through out the game....

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 04-29-2007 @ 06:07 PM).]

Al Tilly the Bum
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 06:28 PM EDT (US)     32 / 82       
I imagine if ES still doesn't manage to nerf iros properly tons of people will quit.

It would rock seeing the iros overnerfed and the lamers have there PR drop down to lance corp/sarge

agape3
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 09:58 PM EDT (US)     33 / 82       
People said that about germany too.
Eicho
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-07 10:05 PM EDT (US)     34 / 82       
I think that with iros is happning the same as with Germans..

this or nex patch iros will get overnerfed, and nobody will use them.

Ossian
Skirmisher
posted 04-30-07 00:27 AM EDT (US)     35 / 82       
I have faith that ES won't make the same overnerf mistake like germany 1.08.

*WINDOWS CRITICAL ERROR 19891126*
Product ID: Ossian Discontinued
Contact your network admin for more details
about this special edition of player...

Allthough cetans are darker, did you know that if you read the word 'cetan' as a dutch word, that you get the same sound as when reading 'satan' in english.-Furby Killer
Threesnrocks
Skirmisher
posted 04-30-07 05:22 PM EDT (US)     36 / 82       
Faith in ES's balancing? O_o

ESO: 3snrocks

Quote of the Day: Experts opinions can't be taken as valid, because they arn't legitimate.
agape3
Skirmisher
posted 04-30-07 08:01 PM EDT (US)     37 / 82       
My fear is that the iros have become so over-hyped that players will settle for no less than an outrageous overnerf. Its not like they're invincible...neither were the germans. But they serve as a darn good excuse for losses, especially since there are so many in quicksearch.

Anyway, why don't we share some strategies on how to beat them? As russians I like to stave off any early attack, then burn their forward warhuts. After this I can pretty much stand toe to toe with their fortress army using upgraded cossacks, and then head for industrial for some howitzers.

OBESECOW
Skirmisher
posted 04-30-07 09:39 PM EDT (US)     38 / 82       
Hey you don't have to play TWC. If you hate the Iroquois so much just play vanilla.....

Swedish
Ossian
Skirmisher
posted 04-30-07 10:44 PM EDT (US)     39 / 82       
As a matter of fact, since wacko joined I have great faith in ES

Best bet to kill Iroq is age fast, defend your TC until 2 falcs come in. Then just use any thing you have to push him back for a few mins until you can make some more falcs/petards, Believe it or not petards make great houses look like noob fodder.
(Most Expert recs have people making them to clean up the 300 wood castles)


*WINDOWS CRITICAL ERROR 19891126*
Product ID: Ossian Discontinued
Contact your network admin for more details
about this special edition of player...

Allthough cetans are darker, did you know that if you read the word 'cetan' as a dutch word, that you get the same sound as when reading 'satan' in english.-Furby Killer
DonOFCassador
Banned
posted 05-01-07 10:25 AM EDT (US)     40 / 82       
I don't care if they over nerf because they suck.
I Hate Iro because.

1 They pretty much only have one disadvantage NO
Falconets.

2 4/5 They are pretty much unbeatalbe because Of Musket riders
And Light cannons Forest prowlers.

They own the Ports.

ziGGysiGGy43
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 10:57 AM EDT (US)     41 / 82       
I think a really good FI to Mortars would beat Iroquois...I'm working on a strat to go that with Ottomans. Problem is, once you prepare to do an FI they can just Tomahawk rush you and own it. Iroquois really are the most OP civilization in the game.
Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 11:19 AM EDT (US)     42 / 82       
petards make great houses look like noob fodder.
(Most Expert recs have people making them to clean up the 300 wood castles)

It costs more to petard a GH than it does to rebuild it, and that is without including towndance.


My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Domaru
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 12:35 PM EDT (US)     43 / 82       

Iro disadvantages
- No falconets.

Lets not forget about:

1. No artillery until industrial
2. No Factories
3. No Towers
4. Having Villies on the Pit which everybody says is so OP takes away from eco tremendously.
5. Lack of mass LI counter. Light cannon? not by itself. the reduced splash from a falcs means they wont kill mass infantry as fast as a falc. While good backup you still need something else to keep mass LI down.
6. Lack of decent Cavalry
7. Very weak Late game economy
8. Iroquois cannot revolt
9. Less economic upgrades at markets, mills, and plantations
10. Far weaker naval capacities than european civs
11. In order for Iroquois army to be equivalent to other armies their WC must remain alive
12. No arsenal without a card
13. No Saloon
14. No Forts
15. No long range anti-building Mortar equivalent
16. No Capitol Building
17. No Mosque

I am sure there are probably more too but this is all I could think of off the top of my head. As you can see they have their strong points but they also have their weak points too. People tend to overlook the weak points and cry OP whenever they get beat by an Iroquois. Seems to be the trend right now.

While GH is very powerful up until early fortress after that it is actually pretty ineffective. I only use it when I am pushed into a defensive battle. The lack of FU towers more than makes up for the stronger TC. As a matter of fact it wouldnt bother me at all if they removed the card and let Iros build towers instead.

Well I am sure to get flamed by the "Iro Hater Bandwagon" so go ahead and flame away boys

[This message has been edited by Domaru (edited 05-01-2007 @ 12:40 PM).]

Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 12:52 PM EDT (US)     44 / 82       
No Towers

Warhut, spammed cheaper than towers by firepit

Lack of mass LI counter. Light cannon? not by itself. the reduced splash from a falcs means they wont kill mass infantry as fast as a falc. While good backup you still need something else to keep mass LI down.

Light cannon kills LI well, from a greater range than a falc, and can beat culvs, unlike a falc.

Iroquois cannot revolt

Disadvantage? lol!

Far weaker naval capacities than european civs

Canoes are easier to spam, and using fertility they get them faster, or water dance improves them greatly

In order for Iroquois army to be equivalent to other armies their WC must remain alive

No,their army is decent without the WC, they also have very good upgrade cads, and with the WC, especially the bazooka shot, they are very strong. Plus the WC has very high HP = wasted rounds to kill him, and can be danced back quickly. Attack dance makes the units very good also.

No Saloon

Normal units work fine, especially considering the saloon give out random mercs, which may be rubbish.

No Forts

GH + towndance is better than fort

No long range anti-building Mortar equivalent

Is 34 range not good enough?

No Capitol Building
No Mosque

Many of these techs are located elsewhere.

PS:Mockhamill, you forgot they have the best houses in the game. (possibly except manors)


My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Domaru
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 01:24 PM EDT (US)     45 / 82       
No Towers

Warhut, spammed cheaper than towers by firepit
How does a warhut even compare to FU towers? No splash damage, not even close to the hitpoints (unless we use several cards and a dance), and nowhere near the range.

Lack of mass LI counter. Light cannon? not by itself. the reduced splash from a falcs means they wont kill mass infantry as fast as a falc. While good backup you still need something else to keep mass LI down.


Light cannon kills LI well, from a greater range than a falc, and can beat culvs, unlike a falc.
We dont have LC until Indy. Many games are over before the game hits Indy.


Iroquois cannot revolt

Disadvantage? lol!
Yes actually sometimes it is more advantageous to revolt.


Far weaker naval capacities than european civs

Canoes are easier to spam, and using fertility they get them faster, or water dance improves them greatly
So we have to first basically deprive at least 25% of our economy, and use cards to keep up?


No Saloon

Normal units work fine, especially considering the saloon give out random mercs, which may be rubbish.

The most important thing in your phrase was "may be". Europeans got just as good of a chance of getting some very superior units.


No Forts

GH + towndance is better than fort

GH doesnt have splash damage and you cannot train infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery from it.


No long range anti-building Mortar equivalent

Is 34 range not good enough?

Mortars have 40 range and 500 siege. I dont see how LC even compares to this unit with their 70 whopping siege attack. Not to mention our unit that is only good vs buildings (elite ram) only has 75 siege attack. The elite ram takes 335 age 1 VS to pay for it while the mortar takes 783. Thats a little over 2-1 VS ratio. That adds up to 185 siege with no range vs 500 siege with 40 range. No comparison.


No Capitol Building
No Mosque

Many of these techs are located elsewhere.
Many? Not all. As a matter of fact most arent located elsewhere. Town Watch, Gas Lighting, Mercantilism, Knighthood, Immigrants, Large Scale Agriculture, Deforestation, Excess Taxation, and Legendary Native Warriors are all not available. I would say thats the majority.

[This message has been edited by Domaru (edited 05-01-2007 @ 01:51 PM).]

Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 01:38 PM EDT (US)     46 / 82       
How does a warhut even compare to FU towers? No splash damage, not even close to the hitpoints (unless we use several cards and a dance), and nowhere near the range.

Towers hardly ever get to FU status, and until then, they're the same. Also, don't forget they can train units.

So we have to first basically deprive at least 25% of our economy, and use cards to keep up?

They are not worse off before the dance, they are very powerful with it. Also, you don't need all 25 vills to make a firepit work.

The most important thing in your phrase was "may be". Europeans got just as good of a chance of getting some very superior units.

Expensive, high pop, non upgradable, superior units.

Mortars have 40 range and 500 siege. I dont see how LC even compares to this unit with their 70 whopping siege attack.

Light cannon do x3 to buildings, so 210 damage 34 range, and can kill other units aswell

Many? Not all. As a matter of fact most arent located elsewhere.

Name (or at least describe) them.



My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Domaru
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 02:12 PM EDT (US)     47 / 82       
How does a warhut even compare to FU towers? No splash damage, not even close to the hitpoints (unless we use several cards and a dance), and nowhere near the range.
Towers hardly ever get to FU status, and until then, they're the same. Also, don't forget they can train units.

One upgrade and they have the splash damage and alot more hitpoints. One upgrade that doesnt take a card which any upgrade for WH's takes one or more cards.


So we have to first basically deprive at least 25% of our economy, and use cards to keep up?

They are not worse off before the dance, they are very powerful with it. Also, you don't need all 25 vills to make a firepit work.

The only way we can get a competitive navy is using a ton of cards and dock techs. And even still we dont have the attack vs land that euro navy has. Not even close when you take monitors into consideration. The 25% I was referring to is at max villie pop. Usually if you are going into the water it is before that point. So to get max benefits from the pit whether it be fertility or water dance (which takes a card btw) then we need "at least" 25% of our eco dancing.


The most important thing in your phrase was "may be". Europeans got just as good of a chance of getting some very superior units.

Expensive, high pop, non upgradable, superior units.

Still superior. Some of which Iro's have a hard time if at all being able to counter.


Mortars have 40 range and 500 siege. I dont see how LC even compares to this unit with their 70 whopping siege attack.

Light cannon do x3 to buildings, so 210 damage 34 range, and can kill other units aswell

So it takes roughly 9 pop (LC) to equal the siege of 4 pop (Mortars). And dont forget we are talking about long range siege. Not vs other units. And don't forget Mortars have twice the HP that LC have and a higher ranged resist.


Many? Not all. As a matter of fact most arent located elsewhere.

Name (or at least describe) them.

Town Watch, Gas Lighting, Mercantilism, Knighthood, Immigrants, Large Scale Agriculture, Deforestation, Excess Taxation, and Legendary Native Warriors. Some very valuable economic enhancements there.

kuzyk
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 02:25 PM EDT (US)     48 / 82       
Many? Not all. As a matter of fact most arent located elsewhere. Town Watch, Gas Lighting, Mercantilism, Knighthood, Immigrants, Large Scale Agriculture, Deforestation, Excess Taxation, and Legendary Native Warriors are all not available. I would say thats the majority.

check the town center, it works like the capital. mercantilism is at the market. excess taxation at plantation, large scale agriculture at the farm. the improvements are out there. hope it helps.

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 02:26 PM EDT (US)     49 / 82       
no saloon is definitely a disadvantage.

yes half the time they are crap mercs so move on, wasted a whooping 200 wood.

the other half you get Elmeti, mamelukes, they aboslutely slaughter iro, then you have highlanders who slaughter everything iro has except FP, and you have swiss pikes who kill warhunts faster than travios dance.

James Lock
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 02:31 PM EDT (US)     50 / 82       
No capitol is an advantage. You don't even need to build a capitol to get your imperial gather rate upgrades, spies, blockades.

Thanks to all those that signed the petition to get me unbanned here.
And special thanks to smashnbash for making it.
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