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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Iroquois the lamest civ ever made
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Topic Subject:Iroquois the lamest civ ever made
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MockHamill
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-07 04:03 PM EDT (US)         
I have nothing but contempt for this civ and those that are still abusing it. Playing Iroquois requires absolutely no skill at all. As a former Iroquois player I know for a fact just how lame and OP this civ is. People who think it is just GreatHouse that needs to be nerfed do not understand the civ at all.

Iro advantages:
- Free map control.
- Best Warchief in the game.
- Most OP fire pit dance in the game Travois dance means that you do not have to collect any wood for farms, warhuts or Plantations.
- Very strong and fast rush. Iroquois are actually very strong in colonial, it is just that their FF is even more OP.
- Requires no flexibility at all the Iroquois player can use the same strategy in every game. However, the heterosexual player has to read the Iroquois player perfectly to even have a chance.
- Best Turtle in the game. 3 Great House TC + firepit + agrarian ways =GG.
- Best skirmisher in the game. Forest prowler + Iro Warchief > all other skrims.
- Skirmisher that can become invisible = legal map hack + best villager killer in the game. EK actually requires a card to become a good villager killer, FP requires nothing at all.
- Extremely strong FI. 10 free villagers when you FI mean that you suddenly get back most of the economy that you sacrificed for the FI.
- Extremely strong late game. Light cannon + Toma shield + Hussars that cost no gold = GG.

Iro disadvantages
- No falconets.

I am not sure I even want to play this game any more. At least not until the next patch. Iroquois are so ridiculously OP it makes me sick. I do not care that Spain may be stronger at the 2100+ level. For 99% of the players using Iroquois is a huge advantage, and playing against them is a huge disadvantage.

In order to balance Iroquois I suggest the following:
- Either remove the starting Travois or let them start with 100 less wood.
- Great House changed to +50% attack.
- Travois dance nerfed so that it takes 20% more time to spawn the travois.
- Light cannons range changed to 30.

AuthorReplies:
justiw
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 02:36 PM EDT (US)     51 / 82       
As a matter of fact most arent located elsewhere. Town Watch, Gas Lighting, Mercantilism, Knighthood, Immigrants, Large Scale Agriculture, Deforestation, Excess Taxation, and Legendary Native Warriors are all not available. I would say thats the majority.

Have you ever aged to imperial as the iro? Or any native civ for that matter?

Mercantilism - equivalent to BB tech at the market, 500f + 500w + 500g

Immigrants - check your TC after you age up to imp

Large scale agriculture - check your farm in imp

Deforestation - research all the wood upgrades at the market, and it will show up in imp

Excess taxation - check your plantation in imp

Legendary native warriors - not sure about this one, but I think it is also in the TC

So, lets review. You don't have to build a capitol to gain access the the imperial upgrades. Hmm, sounds like another advantage to me. Sure they are missing the LOS upgrades and knighthood, but they aren't very important upgrades at all.


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
Domaru
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 02:51 PM EDT (US)     52 / 82       
check the town center, it works like the capital. mercantilism is at the market. excess taxation at plantation, large scale agriculture at the farm. the improvements are out there. hope it helps.

Never realized Mercantilism was at the market. That ones no biggie though. THe major disadvantage is the economical upgrades. Iroquois upgrades at the farm(food), plantation(coin), and house(wood) dont even compare to the european upgrades at the capitol. Iroquois upgrades cost 500 resources and supply 500 resources every 10 minutes for a maximum of 30 minutes. European upgrades at the capitol give you +50% gathering rates and cost 2000 resources. For late-game this is way better than the Iro upgrades. Iro upgrades dont even compare IMHO.

Edit: Yeah I guess I never checked for the resource upgrades after Imperial. They are there. My bad.

[This message has been edited by Domaru (edited 05-01-2007 @ 03:02 PM).]

DonOFCassador
Banned
posted 05-01-07 03:12 PM EDT (US)     53 / 82       
Edit: Yeah I guess I never checked for the resource upgrades after Imperial. They are there. My bad.

Finnaly! Iro get better upgrades correct me if I am wrong but as all of the other civs except the natives get market upgrade s as far as age 4 where they others have to wait until age 5 to get further upgrades on FOOD, WOOD, GOLD,. So it seams the natives civs have a advantage instead of a disadvantage.

[This message has been edited by DonOFCassador (edited 05-01-2007 @ 06:10 PM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 03:34 PM EDT (US)     54 / 82       
there is no question that native civs are disadvantaged in late game.

Economically

all lack the final +30% upgrade in plantation
all lack +25% plantation upgrade card
all lack +35% whaling upgrade card
all lack factories

Militery

all lack extra 10%~15% from RG upgrade
all lack arsenal upgrades, even with new ways they still miss the other half granted by AA.
all lack church LOS upgrade and either dont have cav or infantry training speed upgrade

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 05-01-2007 @ 03:35 PM).]

Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 03:40 PM EDT (US)     55 / 82       
One upgrade and they have the splash damage and alot more hitpoints. One upgrade that doesnt take a card which any upgrade for WH's takes one or more cards.

How about upgrading war huts?

dont have cav or infantry training speed upgrade

Fertility dance. Yes, it costs eco blah blah blah, but can increase even faster, even not at max vills.

Light Cannons are much better than mortars, although they don't take down buildings as quickly, they serve another purpose in your army. Not to mention they cost less and have the same range resist, and a warchief that can boost health.


My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe

[This message has been edited by Lord_RichJP (edited 05-01-2007 @ 03:42 PM).]

jdubbs107
Skirmisher
posted 05-01-07 10:44 PM EDT (US)     56 / 82       
the idea of iroquois laming starts with one less than perfect player who whines about it in a forum. Then everyone begins reading about it and if they lose to one, they make it their mission to whine as well and totally forget to look at mistakes that they made. For one, iroquois are an anti infantry civilization, they don't get light cannon until age IV, kanya horsemen are less than impressive as are musket riders, tomahawks are only a musketeer unit which can be simply owned by any player who does other than mass one unit type and snipes them out. Light cannon only have 150 hp.

If you think you can't be aggressive vs and iroquois in any age, think again. Dutch 150 military population and french 120 owns them late game. Early game hussars not upgraded if used properly own elite fp's, don't make just hussars. If you're playing against an iro who doesn't utilize the fire pit bug, you will find that for him to get decent effect, he will have 20 dancing at a time or maybe 15, which is 15 less villies he has working than you. The truth is, it's pathetic for anyone to call any civ lame.

They are the fourth least used civ in the game, and if you didn't go into the game expecting to lose, you might have a much better chance. Try doing anything with a negative attitude.

Walker_5
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 01:21 AM EDT (US)     57 / 82       
Firepit Bug?
What is that?

Iro is by far the Civ which has the best win ratio.
Its only the forth least used Civ because they are broken and most people wants to play a fun game.

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 02:11 AM EDT (US)     58 / 82       
The truth is, it's pathetic for anyone to call any civ lame.

that is most certainly not truth. purely opinion, and a bad one at that.

the game has different civs to provide diversity of play, the diversity that makes the game fun. however, it is NOT fun to play against a civ who's unique abilities happen to make it unbelievably strong. with this in mind, ES nerfs and boost certain aspects of certain civs with the goal of balance.

to me, balance means giving all civs roughly 50% overall win based on FGO stats, such that with any given civ, a player who knows what he's doing and how to use his civ should win about 50% of his games with players around his skill level. that is just MY opinion, though.

in the current actual state of the game, any player playing iroquois will have an ENORMOUS advantage (over 20% more raw win probability than brits, the lowest civ on the power ladder) just because he is, in fact, playing iroquois. this advantage is gained just by clicking the iroquois flag before beginning the game. how is that not lame?



"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 05-02-2007 @ 02:15 AM).]

Walker_5
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 03:49 AM EDT (US)     59 / 82       
Firepit Bug?
What is that?

If anyone can explain what that is, it should be reported to the bug list thread.

Sporting_Lisbon
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 04:07 AM EDT (US)     60 / 82       
It's an exploit and using it is considered cheating
Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 06:00 AM EDT (US)     61 / 82       
If you think you can't be aggressive vs and iroquois in any age think again.

You can be aggressive but its a lot harder than it should be. Considering 3 Greathouses will eat up pretty much anything sieging them, and if you somehow manage to take one out another 300 wood great house will be up in a matter of seconds thanks to 8+ vills working on it.

Without mortars is stupidly hard to take out an iro player, specially since you cant starve him out of resources because the travois dance provides him with all the farms and plantations he needs.

Light cannon only have 150 hp

Do you forget how cheap they are tho? and the fact that they can take out culvs too? Tell me what should I do against massed cannons + FP's? should I go all out cav? unless I have curis or lancers I dont see hussars stading up to this, keeping in mind the horrible pathing issues, not to mention the greathouses sniping them.

The truth is, it's pathetic for anyone to call any civ lame.

Wether its pathetic to call a civ lame or not is debatable, but what is the truth is that iro is by far the strongest civ, and you are immediatly at an advantage simply by playing as iros.


Walker_5
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 06:49 AM EDT (US)     62 / 82       
@Sporting

Oh, well, then I guess I will never know if someone is using it on me then...

Ossian
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 10:07 AM EDT (US)     63 / 82       
Wether its pathetic to call a civ lame or not is debatable, but what is the truth is that iro is by far the strongest civ, and you are immediatly at an advantage simply by playing as iros.

Some experts say that Dutch is the top civ, which I agree since massed dutch falcs can beat great house.
Also they don't even need to nerf Great house, just make it where vills can't make them, then you have to wait 1 minute to rebuild a GH which takes away your WC aura as well.


*WINDOWS CRITICAL ERROR 19891126*
Product ID: Ossian Discontinued
Contact your network admin for more details
about this special edition of player...

Allthough cetans are darker, did you know that if you read the word 'cetan' as a dutch word, that you get the same sound as when reading 'satan' in english.-Furby Killer
DonOFCassador
Banned
posted 05-02-07 11:40 AM EDT (US)     64 / 82       
Some experts say that Dutch is the top civ, which I agree since massed dutch falcs can beat great house.
Also they don't even need to nerf Great house, just make it where vills can't make them, then you have to wait 1 minute to rebuild a GH which takes away your WC aura as well.

That maybe true the Ducth can mass Falconets the quickest of any civ.
Ducth I think take out Iro the best because they can mass Falconets, and Falconets will deal with those pesky Tomohawks Annanes(sorry I forgot the spelling) plus Halberds take out Iro cav faster than you can say Attack now.

I think in the next pacth that they just leave Iro the way it's boost All the other civs!

Ports need a Boost or at least I want them to get one.

Wether its pathetic to call a civ lame or not is debatable, but what is the truth is that iro is by far the strongest civ, and you are immediatly at an advantage simply by playing as iros.

No it's not the best civ think Ducth have already done that it's eco just grows insanely fast and in the later age it's mass Forest prowlers and light cannons Take Down almost every other civ.

Edit: Level hard.Me(_) my friend(Iro).
Multiplayer.
Code: wr(win rate) lr(lose rate).

(Not including native civs)
~~~Ports~~~
Iro FF: 55% WR 45% LR.
Iro rush: 60% WR 40% LR.
Iro turtle: 30% WR 70 % LR.

~~~Germany~~~
Iro FF: 45% WR 55% LR.
Iro rush: 65 WR 35 LR.
Iro turtle: 45 WR 55 LR

~~~Spain~~~
Iro FF: 70% WR 30 LR.
Iro rush: 55% WR 45 LR.
Iro turtle: 40% WR 60% LR.

~~~Ducth~~~
Iro FF: 65% WR 35 LR.
Iro rush: 90% WR 10 LR.
Iro turtle: 80% WR 20% LR.

~~~Russian~~~
Iro FF: 35% WR 65 LR.
Iro rush: 75% WR 25% LR.
Iro turtle: 50% WR 50% LR.

~~~British~~~
Iro FF: 80% WR 20% LR.
Iro rush: 50% WR 50% LR.
Iro turtle: 85% WR 15 LR.

~~~French~~~
Iro FF: 45% WR 55% LR.
Iro rush: 75% WR 25% LR.
Iro turtle: 30% WR 70% LR.

~~~Ottoman~~~
Iro FF: 55% WR 45% LR.
Iro rush: 100% WR 0% LR.
Iro turtle: 30% WR 70% LR.

That my chart please any sugesttoins are welcome.
Thanks It's not ecxact but it's some thing.


[This message has been edited by DonOFCassador (edited 05-03-2007 @ 12:33 PM).]

Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 11:43 AM EDT (US)     65 / 82       
Win/lose: 55%win rate 80%lose rate.

Lol :P


My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Walker_5
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 04:04 PM EDT (US)     66 / 82       
The same logic as when my sisters were stealing alcohol from my father when we were kids...

1dl 40% + 1dl 35% + 1dl 25% = 3dl 100% alcohol!
Man thats strong!

~~~Germany~~~
Win/lose: 55%win rate 80%lose rate.

For a civ that lose 80%, they sure win a lot!

DonOFCassador
Banned
posted 05-02-07 05:39 PM EDT (US)     67 / 82       
Thanks I edited it.
Look I tested these there not right on.
But I played 20 game with each of the civs listed above 1v1 vs Iro.
Garlef
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 07:14 PM EDT (US)     68 / 82       
Don,
Who are the 20 games (with each civ) between? You and AI (which level)? You and iamgrunt? or something else?

Kind of hard to understand w/out a frame of reference to your posted info.

LordGeneral
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 09:35 PM EDT (US)     69 / 82       
Civs that need to get nerfed:

French OP to defend a colonial rush, ff and cannon and cur lame.

IRO DEFINATLY

Aztec eagles

ziGGysiGGy43
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 09:58 PM EDT (US)     70 / 82       
IMO, the problem with Iroquois right now is NOT just Great House Turtle/Boom. It's their versitility. So you see them going GH T/B, you Fast Industrial (I've actually been working on a Build Order) they see that in your deck, age up, and just tomahawk rush you. It's not too hard to switch...
General_II
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-07 10:20 PM EDT (US)     71 / 82       
I have to agree with most of what's been said. Undoubtedly, Warhuts are as overpowered as they are realistic (to specify, WAY overpowered). The fact is, they can attain map control pretty easily. The 8 pike card is no answer, as a Warhut can take down at least 3 of the attacking 8 pikes. If the Iro. lamer sends converted treasure guardian meatshields, 8 pikemen will hardly make a dent...

They may have a bad economic situation, but that is only so mid-late game. This is irrelevant, however, as they have total map control and can hunt and mine until they win. The light cannons are lame; they may not have much attack, but have too many hitpoints... (When did the Iro. ever have cannons anyways?)

Finally, Frowlers (Forest Prowlers). Anyone that ever played against a Russian rusher probably knows the futility of sending 5 hussars against 20 strelets. On paper, the hussars might win. With minimal micro, only 4-6 strelets die. This skirmisher scenario is present in all battles w/ light infantry units. The only choice: destroy the skirmishers w/ counter infantry or counter skirmishers.

Since Frowlers can use stealth, they automatically get the first shot in, most likely killing many enemy units. Cavalry can't run them down due to tomohawks and cav.'s inherent micro weakness. That said, there is no viable counter to Frowlers...

*waits for iro players to flame*

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 05-03-07 00:04 AM EDT (US)     72 / 82       
French OP to defend a colonial rush, ff and cannon and cur lame.

stupid suggestion. french hang around 45-48 win % in most sets of stats. why? maybe 1 in 50 games, if that, gets to a point at which french are capable of "cur lame"


"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 05-03-2007 @ 00:07 AM).]

Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 05-03-07 00:32 AM EDT (US)     73 / 82       
IMO, the problem with Iroquois right now is NOT just Great House Turtle/Boom. It's their versitility.

I think their versitility is due to great house. While other civs need to change decks for different strategies all the iro needs is Great house and that gives them the opportunity to turtle in peace. Say the toma rush fails, they fall back, go to frotress spam Great houses and even tho they are economically backwards they are relativly safe because they are cheap, strong and most importantly build stupidly fast. That card enables iros the security needed to change strategies without much loss, unlike other civs.

And regarding wether Dutch is better or not, I do agree that in a Dutch vs Iro match up the dutch falc spammer has a nice advantage. However Im not too sure about dutch being better overall.

Just curious to note a similarity between iro and dutch, I have seen some dutch players using the explorer card and FF to 3 CM TC's. Kinda similar to great house.

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-03-07 01:32 AM EDT (US)     74 / 82       
Fast Industrial (I've actually been working on a Build Order)

u actually need to invent a new one?

it is a bit like working on a BO for the spanish FF.

DonOFCassador
Banned
posted 05-03-07 10:38 AM EDT (US)     75 / 82       
Here I will correct it in the next post.

[This message has been edited by DonOFCassador (edited 05-03-2007 @ 11:38 AM).]

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