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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » How should Thoroughbreds get nerfed?
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Topic Subject:How should Thoroughbreds get nerfed?
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theboywonder916
Skirmisher
posted 06-28-07 05:45 PM EDT (US)         
Ok so we know now that they are going to nerf France's Thoroughbred card next patch. The card now makes gendarme 2 population instead of 3. My guess is that they wont nerf it in by pop, like making it 2.5 pop because that would be cumbersome and not enough benifit to send the card. So i am thinking they will nerf the total cuirs you can make to like 40 and keep the card as is. What do you all think?

*UPDATE*
Some alternatives i was thinking of could be things like, this is all assuming the card now stays the same, 2 pop, but adds one of these stipulations.

-Make them much slower, like soligen (sp?) steal, the dopp card.
-Make them cost 20% more
-Tweak with the stable upgrades, make imperial upgrade the same as guard, 25% HP/attack?

[This message has been edited by theboywonder916 (edited 06-28-2007 @ 10:15 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
justiw
Skirmisher
posted 06-29-07 10:22 AM EDT (US)     26 / 44       
Make the card cost 2000 coin to send!
^^ My favorite so far

Followed by the conversion of hussars to cuirs.

Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
dbking
Skirmisher
posted 06-29-07 10:36 AM EDT (US)     27 / 44       
make the card sent cost - 2000 gold
OR increase the cost of cuirs by 20-50%

btw why to nerf it when french cant get to age IV to use it pffff

[This message has been edited by dbking (edited 06-29-2007 @ 10:40 AM).]

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 06-29-07 11:27 AM EDT (US)     28 / 44       
You can make the card cost as much gold as you want, but the same problem would remain. By the time the French player sends the card and can spam Cuirassiers, 2000 gold is nothing.

15% speed doesn't seem bad, specially because it wouldn't make Cuirassiers harder to counter. I mean, no one should use Ranged Cavalry against massed Cuirs anyway... this'd just men that Dragoon like units die faster!

ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
raskolnikov
Skirmisher
posted 06-29-07 11:36 AM EDT (US)     29 / 44       
Personally I'm amazed this card made it by the balance people from the very start.

Even in his heart the devil
has to know the water level.
Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 06-29-07 11:43 AM EDT (US)     30 / 44       
Best suggestion so far was at Age Sanctuary:

Thoroughbreds: transforms all Hussars into Cuirassiers.
I like this idea, in fact I thought of it a while ago but it got drowned out in some arguement about something else.

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
dbking
Skirmisher
posted 06-29-07 01:39 PM EDT (US)     31 / 44       
So the best solution is to add 30% to their cost with the card.

and that is some nerf as with the card u will HAVE like 33% more of them, thats 60% increase and cuirs arnt that cheap in the first place

[This message has been edited by dbking (edited 06-29-2007 @ 01:43 PM).]

theboywonder916
Skirmisher
posted 06-29-07 02:08 PM EDT (US)     32 / 44       
A 30% price hike is nice for three reasons.
-more price efficient to counter with current units
-rewards those who counter correctly with less countering needed (because the french will run out of money sooner)
-punishes the dirty cuir masser by making it more painful to build 60 cuirs that are countered.

I like this idea.

the 2000 gold to send is good, but i still feel that if you can afford to mass cuirs, 2000 isnt that big of a deal.

I think that a speed increase may also have an undesirably OP effect. i mean look at the dutch halbs with 30% speed, they started countering their counters. 3 pop cuirs that are super fast are going to be even HARDER to defeat with halbs because you wont be able to catch them!
SmashNBash
Skirmisher
posted 06-29-07 02:47 PM EDT (US)     33 / 44       
yea i agree, being the heaviest cavalry in the game and being .5 speed slower than a hussar is not something that makes sense. they are pretty fast. they should run slow imo and thouroughbreds should boost speed not pop space but at the same time, cuirs speed gets nerfed.

Lolocausts are fun.
Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 06-29-07 02:58 PM EDT (US)     34 / 44       
The problem of countering mass Cuirassiers is not killing them cost effectively (which is pretty hard already), but killing the whole army due to its pop efficiency. Making them more expensive may reduce the problem at some point of Industrial, but it'll be as bad as it is in very late game

ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
Eskaton8
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-07 10:45 AM EDT (US)     35 / 44       
hi,

the French are on 4th place right now, that is smack in the middle, they are balanced, keep your hands off of what is balanced, just give others a boost, this is how ES works, not by nerfing a civ !!!

Eskaton


The Wolf is Master of Illusion,and so is Wolf of Destruction...
theboywonder916
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-07 10:51 AM EDT (US)     36 / 44       
Hmm is there an echo in here? 4th isnt "smack in the middle" if there are 11 civs. The problem is their early game is a little weak and their late game is OP. If ES made it so every civ could cost effectively and consistently beat a 60 imperial gendarme lame i think everyone would be happy. However it has already been announced that thoroughbreds WILL be nerfed, so it looks like es isnt going that route. they will just nerf the one civ, France.
As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 07-06-07 10:52 AM EDT (US)     37 / 44       
Take it out. This card isn't a huge problem* for supremacy play, but is OP in treaty play.

*There is a trend towards FFing more so this may have already changed. Also, if cavalry do get a ranged resistance boost, it won't make Cuir spam any less dangerous.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
L_Clan_Socrates
VIP
posted 07-06-07 11:05 AM EDT (US)     38 / 44       
I must have missed any official statement that said we were going to nerf thoroughbreds

[img]http://www.aoe3-arena.com/sign2/WaCkO,3,0.png[/img]
As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 07-06-07 11:07 AM EDT (US)     39 / 44       
Probably going off Vega's hints at sanctuary, but if you have any info, mise well spill it.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
Culverin
Skirmisher
(id: Robert_Squared)
posted 07-06-07 11:42 AM EDT (US)     40 / 44       
mise
That's a really awesome way to combine 'might' and 'as'.

And it isn't amazingly hard to counter a huge amount of imperial gendarmes. I could never beat this one guy because he kept spamming imperial jinetes, and even when I brought along voltiguers/imperial halberds it wasn't enough.

Just call me Robert.
My Massgate
somme
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-07 11:45 AM EDT (US)     41 / 44       
3 pop units are strong, simply for the reason that they survive so long and the longer they live, the longer they are dealing damage for.

If you could swap 10 strelets for 2 units, each with the combined stats of 5 strelets they would be much stronger, because to reduce the attack of the strelets at all they would need to deal 5x as much damage.

ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 07-06-07 01:07 PM EDT (US)     42 / 44       
I must have missed any official statement that said we were going to nerf thoroughbreds
But now you have to do it! Come on, after all those rumors and discussions you don't think ES can get away without nerfing the card, do you?

ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
LordBob13
Skirmisher
posted 07-17-07 04:55 PM EDT (US)     43 / 44       
I think it will be good if they keep the card at 2 pop but make cuirs 25% weaker. A pure cuir spam with throughbreds is 50% more powerful than one without(since it allows you to make 50% more cuirs). With the 25% penalty, it makes a pure cuir spam 25% moer powerful instead of 50%. Or you can just make throughbreds boost cuirs and keep them at 3 pop. I guess that would be better for a cuis/skirm combo, and throughbreds doesnt just turn into another useless card.

From a poster at Agecommunity (Talking about the 4 cow age up option):

"Only a noob like you doesn't realize how valueble it can be. That's 2000 food waiting to be gathered"
LOL

[This message has been edited by LordBob13 (edited 07-17-2007 @ 04:57 PM).]

Parfait
Skirmisher
posted 07-17-07 05:10 PM EDT (US)     44 / 44       
I don't the problems is so much with thoroughbreds, but with cuirassiers themselves. They were op in vanilla 1.01 for the same reasons they're op now - dutch, iro, and spain have their own unique screws that make cuirassiers' strengths less noticeable.

Of course, something should be done, either with thoroughbreds or cuirassiers. I'm not saying that French should go untouched, I just mean that a 900 HP splash damage unit is pretty ridiculous all on its own =)

[This message has been edited by Parfait (edited 07-17-2007 @ 05:57 PM).]

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