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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » 1.04 Iro nerf..? Really?
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Topic Subject:1.04 Iro nerf..? Really?
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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 05:40 AM EDT (US)         
Recent WCG Asian Regional Games has exhibited for the very first time , how worlds best player plays the best civilisation in this game.

after watching a few of his game, I have concluded that these iro nerfs will have very minor negative impact on the way iro is played, if we are to considered Iamgrunt's play style is the best play style for Iros and Iro lamers are to follow after WCG.

here is how he plays:

discovery - forward build WH, 3 vils hunt herds away from opp TC, 16 vil colonial with Wise woman, get second house during aging + 25 wood spare, all vils on food except 2 on gold (who are to stop mining at 300 gold).

colonial - build 2nd WH around opp's base, BB 5 tomas + make 5 with 125 wood, taking 100 from wise woman, 1st shipment 5 vils. 10 tomas go harrass, take down a few vils and any exposed buildings without support. second colonial shipment 600 gold, go to fortress with messenger and about 25~26 vils.

fortress (just under 8:00), build 3rd WH around opp's base, totally contain opponent inside his base, no hunts and no mines, he masses FP. and play cards as following:

5 mantlet if opp focus on use buildings(WH, outpost, TC)

5 musktrider if opp focus on cavalry

Ag ways if opp doesnt apply pressure

8 FP if opp focus on infantry

1200 res for any of above

and there are other shipments that he would throw in: 3 travios, GH(for counter-booming only), 5 cuirs, 6 kanya, infantry combat.

Game is over generally with only 4 or less fortress shipments used.

this may sound quite standard but fact is, this is how Iamgrunt plays, and he plays this style to perfection.


now lets see how much impact does 1.04 iro changes have to this:
* Iroquois
- Starting Travois is not able to transform into Warhuts in Nomad Age or Discovery Age. Starting Travois is now called "Discovery Travois" and is a clone of the current unit that can build everything it can now, EXCEPT Warhuts.
- Great House card reduces cost of Town Centers by 25% (down from 50%). Damage is reduced to 50% down from by 100%.
- Kanya Horsemen receive x2 bonus modifier versus Artillery.
- Musket Rider receive x2.5 bonus modifier versus Artillery.
- Light Cannon range reduced to 32 from 34.
- Agrarian Ways card changed to provide no cost (set wood, gold, food to 0) for upgrades of mills and plantations.
the only significant change is the discovery age travios. he will not be able to harras with 5 tomas at 4:40 with t5 more at 5:10, they will take about 30 seconds longer since first 5 are now to walk from TC ans second 5 have to wait till travios build into WH, apart from that, everything else pretty much is the same.

GH nerf - next to no difference, because he doesnt use it proactively

light cannon nerf - next to no difference, because he doesnt use FI as core strat (btw 4 LC and 3 age4 native merc exist in all his decks, i think they are there to confuse opponent about his potential choise of strat)

Agrarian ways nerf - next to no difference, because there is a big chance that the "discovery travios" will be used to make either a plantation or a farm, thus making at the least half of ag way's bonus still come to effect. and as seen in above strat analysis, ag ways doesnt have to be used since the game is generally over within 4 fortress shipments, 1200 res, 8 FP, 5 mantlet, 5 MR, 6 kanya (esp after they are boosted), 5 cuirs are equally good as substitute for ag ways

kanya boost - this will actually have quite a bigg effect. not only they will live longer under ranged fire, but they are now extremely efficient in killing the only real FP counter - falconets, it only takes 4 hits! that is 75% better than hussar, 150% better than veteran lancer, 50% better than uhlan, and 100% better than cossack.

MR boost - this only wont have much impact, but it is still a boost.

ES says as of 1.03, Iro has trouble against massed falcs, I am really quite lost on this one, not in one game have I saw massed falcs being OP against iro, in most games iro wins before falcs can be remotely resemble "massed", in the rest of the games iro just go FI and get 4 LC that completely owns "massed falcs"

Even if massed falcs were ever slightly effective against iro FF, they are certainly worth less in 1.04 now, welcome the 30%RR/50 damage kanyas.


It is never good to finish a whine without a suggestion, so here is what I think. If ES can boost a WC bonus that is found to be too weak, why cant they nerf a WC bonus that is too strong?

- WC aura should change to 10% HP boost

- WC Eagle Eye recharge time should increase by 25%





Night all.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 08-16-2007 @ 05:20 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Qazitory
HG Alumnus
posted 08-16-07 05:56 AM EDT (US)     1 / 42       
Noooo, now you typed out his strat here and people will face even more iros

I've been studing Grunt's recs closely, too and noticed the same thing. We have yet to see how the discovery travois nerf affects the game, as Grunt's style relies heavily on map control. I do think, however, that Iro will still be very strong - in fact, in some aspects even stronger.

Perhaps this is the TWC equivalent of 1v1 Huns vs Huns of AoE2?

Boosts for other civs may have some effect as well, but Iro will still be no doubt top3. They will probably be able to knock out Dutch even easier now with the musket/kanya boosts. Ah well, at least TAD is here soon and my elephants will trample his puny prowlers. If they see them, that is.

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Zongo
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 05:59 AM EDT (US)     2 / 42       
the only significant change is the discovery age travios. he will not be able to harras with 5 tomas at 4:40 with t5 more at 5:10, they will take about 30 seconds longer since first 5 are now to walk from TC ans second 5 have to wait till travios build into WH, apart from that, everything else pretty much is the same.
this change is rather huge and makes the strat a lot worse imo, also, they can't ship the 3 vills at the fwd warhut anymore

Iro will still be strong, no doubt about that, but most will probably FF to spam fp's + shipments
At least we can rush em now

Old Indian: Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nursed it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this to me?" And the snake answered, "Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake."
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 07:15 AM EDT (US)     3 / 42       
His strat will be significantly worse when his opponent can actually use huntables after his first herd is used. It will really hurt that his map control isnt really certain, harras comes much slower, an opponent who can use hunts.
And i dont think many will use discovery travois on a plantation that they can use after a long time if they send AG. I think it will happen more often they just make a house with it, and use the wood for a market.
What i forgot: In fortress he build 3 WH arround opponent base. How you think he is gonna do that without his starting WH? (it is way too dangerous to send colonial travois to build WH just outside no build zone, i doubt many will go much further then HM with it).

And i honestly dont care that grunt doesnt use GH, 90% of my iro opponents do use it. That is what i care about. And LC nerf doesnt matter because he doesnt FI, wow that makes me feel much better, my opponent wont use LC because also grunt doesnt?

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

agape3
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 09:03 AM EDT (US)     4 / 42       
I don't have a problem with this strategy, really. If his opponent lets him have the map uncontested like that, he deserves to lose.

The starting travois nerf is enough. The only time this thing REALLY screws you over is on a map like rockies where the hunts on you hill won't even get you 5 musketeers (with the nerf, you have a window to start herding or to set up a defensive structure of you own). With any food at all, you can break through these warhuts, and force the fight back to his base, where he'll need to dance up some plantations and mills and settle on lower gathering rates.

The only iro tactic that I can't stand is a hard turtle with gay house, no way I should need mortar shells to destroy a friggin wigwam.
SupremeOverlord
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 09:15 AM EDT (US)     5 / 42       
------------------------------------------------
no way I should need mortar shells to destroy a friggin wigwam
------------------------------------------------

lol, +1


------------------------------------------------
In fortress he build 3 WH arround opponent base. How you think he is gonna do that without his starting WH? (it is way too dangerous to send colonial travois to build WH just outside no build zone, i doubt many will go much further then HM with it)
------------------------------------------------

I agree, this will totally change any hope of iro rushing with a forward warhut. That gives time for you to herd your second hunts inside the no-build zone, and you are safe from harassment. Plus, with the Great House nerf, Iro turtles wont be as OP as they were, but they're still very powerful. So, What the iros do in 1.04, we'll have to see, because now they dont have a rush, but also they dont have a notable weakness because os the Kanya boost against cannon.

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Orca
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 10:20 AM EDT (US)     6 / 42       
the only significant change is the discovery age travios.
And this change is MUCH more significant than you seem to realise.

[This message has been edited by Orca (edited 08-16-2007 @ 10:21 AM).]

PlasmaDogPlasma
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 10:57 AM EDT (US)     7 / 42       
there is a big chance that the "discovery travios" will be used to make either a plantation or a farm
The other popular option for FFers will be building a house with it and using starting wood (+50 when needed) for a TP.

I don't think there's much doubt at all that Iro are still going to be the #1 OP civ after patch.
scriv1984
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 11:26 AM EDT (US)     8 / 42       
i just REALLY hate iroq.
Im not happy that you typed the BO, but i really hope that this patch is better than you say...

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Real men play without walls." LordKivlov
A Dutchman
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 12:19 PM EDT (US)     9 / 42       
Excuses for the (stupid?) question but where can I find the WCG records from iamgrunt?

Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made -- Tibullus
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 01:39 PM EDT (US)     10 / 42       
Question: Do buildings made with travois give you xp? If so, it might be a decent idea to make a plantation, just because of the xp it gives you.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

L_Clan_Socrates
VIP
posted 08-16-07 01:55 PM EDT (US)     11 / 42       
You can't make plantations until Fortress age.

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CookieCrisp13
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 02:37 PM EDT (US)     12 / 42       
not if you send ADVANCED PLANTATION!!

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dejanh
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 02:50 PM EDT (US)     13 / 42       
Iro are still going to be OP. They lose the forward WH, but they get so many other boosts. Just wait and you will see...

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Beatnik Joe
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 02:58 PM EDT (US)     14 / 42       
Thanks, this is a very good write-up. I really wish that you were wrong about all of this, but you're not. My guess is that this patch is a slight net nerf to the Iroquois, but it's much less of one than I would have expected or preferred... it seems like they'll be made slightly less annoying, but still extremely strong (and without any vulnerability to artillery in any age.) This is doubly surprising when you consider that non-winning civs like the Brits went without direct help in the patch.

The Kanya boost versus artillery is perhaps the strangest change I've seen from any AoE3 patch. I'm assuming that Iroquois must have suffered very badly vs. Dutch in testing... nothing else would really explain it.
If so, it might be a decent idea to make a plantation, just because of the xp it gives you.
Absolutely -- with the XP that it gives you and the potential to use Agrarian Ways, this isn't a bad option at all. Picture "saving" your first travois for a Stable when you hit colonial, then using the 2nd for a War Hut. Using the 3rd for a Plantation sounds like it could be a decent way to go!

Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 03:57 PM EDT (US)     15 / 42       
You can't make plantations until Fortress age.
I am stupid

Kanya boost makes sense. If you ever played a game against an iro and for some reason you managed to come in fortress and have a decent eco (so the iro screwed it), then the first thing you do is get cannons + some meatshield. Suicide FP is the only counter iro has, besides GH. Now they have a decent counter. And LC have also been nerved, so they can be properly countered by culvs. So iro also need in industrial something to counter some culvs + massed cannons. Just imagine you play a civ that can only make uhlans (no free ones with shipments), and that that is your only counter to cannons. You would get suicidal.

I agree, the patch doesnt nerf their fortress abilities much, but still it is a large nerf. For sure their FI abilities are nerved. Obviously their rush/harras is nerved without their forward warhut.
This means not only they cant as easily rush/harras you, and cant make sure you only got your starting hunt and some berries, but it also means that you can FF much better, since you will have more time to adapt when he comes with tomas.
And with one warhut less, plus GH nerf, you can actually rush him when he wants to FF.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Beatnik Joe
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 04:28 PM EDT (US)     16 / 42       
So iro also need in industrial something to counter some culvs + massed cannons.
They've already got this -- Kanya horsemen and light cannons. They simply do not need to have this additional artillery-killing superpower. Remember, Kanya horsemen are being boosted in this patch, just like all other cavalry. In fact, since they already have good ranged resistance, you can argue that they benefit even more than other cav:
Improved Hussar, Cossack, Uhlan, Axe Rider, and Kanya Riders ranged resistance armor by 0.10.
With this ranged resistance improvement, they are going to shrug off 30% of ranged damage. Then they are going to do double damage against all artillery.

I anticipate a problem here. I'll leave it at that.

Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style

[This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 08-16-2007 @ 04:29 PM).]

IRP_m0f0
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 04:40 PM EDT (US)     17 / 42       
i guess i need to start getting used to loosing more now
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 05:00 PM EDT (US)     18 / 42       
You will lose half of your light cannons to culvs before they can fire a single shot. And kanya just dont do it against cannons. Just imagine that your only counter to cannons is cav. And not just cav, but fairly sucky cav.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 05:03 PM EDT (US)     19 / 42       
Iro was just a flat-out poorly balanced civ right from the go. Ever since TWC came out I've had a severe lack of trust in ES's balancing, simply because they did not notice how overpowered iro was...I don't even understand how a professional balance tester could miss that. It only takes six minutes, spend 15 minutes and you'd have to have an IQ lower than that of the tab key on your keyboard not to notice it.

[/rant]

On-topic:
Iro will still be overpowered. They won't be as incredibly dominant as they are now, though.
-GH was extremely overpowered and I'm glad it's getting nerfed. Even if grunt didn't use it much, having it hit like that will reduce iro's versatility, since it probably won't even be in most decks anymore.
-I'm happy about the fwd warhut removal too. You can herd your second hunts long before a colonial hut arrives. When they smack their hut down in the middle of your hunts 30 seconds in, it's a major screw and those inevitable toms will know exactly where to look for your vils. which brings us to the next point:
-The toms will be slower, even if only a bit slower as you said. Maybe we'll all have SOME chance to age and get some LI out to kill them. The power of the tom rush was in its overpowered crippling speed, some civs couldn't even reach colonial before they had 11 toms all over their vils. Toms are weak units, and inconvenient to make. At least we'll have a sliver of a chance more to effectively defend against it.
-Falcs are effective, but like you said, by the time they can be anywhere close to massed, iro is owning them with LC. Therefor, the boosts against falcs won't help them all that much.

Overall, I think they're going to be a lot weaker. Probably even tolerable to play against. But IMO they'll still be OP.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
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SahintheFalcon
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 07:32 PM EDT (US)     20 / 42       
ES says as of 1.03, Iro has trouble against massed falcs, I am really quite lost on this one, not in one game have I saw massed falcs being OP against iro, in most games iro wins before falcs can be remotely resemble "massed", in the rest of the games iro just go FI and get 4 LC that completely owns "massed falcs"

Even if massed falcs were ever slightly effective against iro FF, they are certainly worth less in 1.04 now, welcome the 30%RR/50 damage kanyas.
I totally agree. Mass falcs is a horrible strategy against iro.


ES doesn't know how to play its own game. Sometimes I think that ES doesn't watch player replays or look on the forums much. They are just their secluded community, constantly testing the game without talking to players in the real world. And when they DO listen to players' complaints, they don't sufficiently test out their nerfs/boosts before releasing them. Just look at abus guns. It was obvious that there was a huge complaint about them, but ES just used "editor wars" to test abus guns. And sure enough, one 20% ranged resistance abus gun was almost equal to two skirmishers. Even the math works out well! It's Balanced! Release the patch!

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Tom_3000
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 08:21 PM EDT (US)     21 / 42       
Where are these recorded games? Was unable to find any looking here or at Age Sanctuary, but would be interested in watching a couple.
L_Clan_Socrates
VIP
posted 08-16-07 08:34 PM EDT (US)     22 / 42       
Sahin I'd be more than willing to test out your theory that "ES doesn't know how to play it's own game". Whisper me on ESO sometime.

[img]http://www.aoe3-arena.com/sign2/WaCkO,3,0.png[/img]
SUX2000
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 09:09 PM EDT (US)     23 / 42       
wacko please tell me your balance testing for this patch has consisted of more than challenging random noobs to play u on ESO

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DomoRoboto
Banned
posted 08-16-07 09:14 PM EDT (US)     24 / 42       
Noooo, now you typed out his strat here and people will face even more iros
He's right, i'm gonna go try it right now.

The change IMHO, will change them a lot. No more beforeyouage raids, inclination towards a ff by making a TP, etc, etc.

And where do you watch pro recs? Ive been meaning to perfect my sioux strat
StonewallJ
Seraph Emeritus
(id: Conquistador34)
posted 08-16-07 09:59 PM EDT (US)     25 / 42       
wacko please tell me your balance testing for this patch has consisted of more than challenging random noobs to play u on ESO
Hey, if someone contests if you play the game or not you have to offer to play them to prove otherwise.

And at least you offered something to the conversation of iros SUX -.-

I think that BO will be very popular, but whatever grunt did would be. It'd probably be the Iro focused strat after 1.04 is released, but it is an improvement from before IMO.

I still would like to see an IRO WC nerf, but can't wait for 1.04.

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