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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » 1.04 Iro nerf..? Really?
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Topic Subject:1.04 Iro nerf..? Really?
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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 05:40 AM EDT (US)         
Recent WCG Asian Regional Games has exhibited for the very first time , how worlds best player plays the best civilisation in this game.

after watching a few of his game, I have concluded that these iro nerfs will have very minor negative impact on the way iro is played, if we are to considered Iamgrunt's play style is the best play style for Iros and Iro lamers are to follow after WCG.

here is how he plays:

discovery - forward build WH, 3 vils hunt herds away from opp TC, 16 vil colonial with Wise woman, get second house during aging + 25 wood spare, all vils on food except 2 on gold (who are to stop mining at 300 gold).

colonial - build 2nd WH around opp's base, BB 5 tomas + make 5 with 125 wood, taking 100 from wise woman, 1st shipment 5 vils. 10 tomas go harrass, take down a few vils and any exposed buildings without support. second colonial shipment 600 gold, go to fortress with messenger and about 25~26 vils.

fortress (just under 8:00), build 3rd WH around opp's base, totally contain opponent inside his base, no hunts and no mines, he masses FP. and play cards as following:

5 mantlet if opp focus on use buildings(WH, outpost, TC)

5 musktrider if opp focus on cavalry

Ag ways if opp doesnt apply pressure

8 FP if opp focus on infantry

1200 res for any of above

and there are other shipments that he would throw in: 3 travios, GH(for counter-booming only), 5 cuirs, 6 kanya, infantry combat.

Game is over generally with only 4 or less fortress shipments used.

this may sound quite standard but fact is, this is how Iamgrunt plays, and he plays this style to perfection.


now lets see how much impact does 1.04 iro changes have to this:
* Iroquois
- Starting Travois is not able to transform into Warhuts in Nomad Age or Discovery Age. Starting Travois is now called "Discovery Travois" and is a clone of the current unit that can build everything it can now, EXCEPT Warhuts.
- Great House card reduces cost of Town Centers by 25% (down from 50%). Damage is reduced to 50% down from by 100%.
- Kanya Horsemen receive x2 bonus modifier versus Artillery.
- Musket Rider receive x2.5 bonus modifier versus Artillery.
- Light Cannon range reduced to 32 from 34.
- Agrarian Ways card changed to provide no cost (set wood, gold, food to 0) for upgrades of mills and plantations.
the only significant change is the discovery age travios. he will not be able to harras with 5 tomas at 4:40 with t5 more at 5:10, they will take about 30 seconds longer since first 5 are now to walk from TC ans second 5 have to wait till travios build into WH, apart from that, everything else pretty much is the same.

GH nerf - next to no difference, because he doesnt use it proactively

light cannon nerf - next to no difference, because he doesnt use FI as core strat (btw 4 LC and 3 age4 native merc exist in all his decks, i think they are there to confuse opponent about his potential choise of strat)

Agrarian ways nerf - next to no difference, because there is a big chance that the "discovery travios" will be used to make either a plantation or a farm, thus making at the least half of ag way's bonus still come to effect. and as seen in above strat analysis, ag ways doesnt have to be used since the game is generally over within 4 fortress shipments, 1200 res, 8 FP, 5 mantlet, 5 MR, 6 kanya (esp after they are boosted), 5 cuirs are equally good as substitute for ag ways

kanya boost - this will actually have quite a bigg effect. not only they will live longer under ranged fire, but they are now extremely efficient in killing the only real FP counter - falconets, it only takes 4 hits! that is 75% better than hussar, 150% better than veteran lancer, 50% better than uhlan, and 100% better than cossack.

MR boost - this only wont have much impact, but it is still a boost.

ES says as of 1.03, Iro has trouble against massed falcs, I am really quite lost on this one, not in one game have I saw massed falcs being OP against iro, in most games iro wins before falcs can be remotely resemble "massed", in the rest of the games iro just go FI and get 4 LC that completely owns "massed falcs"

Even if massed falcs were ever slightly effective against iro FF, they are certainly worth less in 1.04 now, welcome the 30%RR/50 damage kanyas.


It is never good to finish a whine without a suggestion, so here is what I think. If ES can boost a WC bonus that is found to be too weak, why cant they nerf a WC bonus that is too strong?

- WC aura should change to 10% HP boost

- WC Eagle Eye recharge time should increase by 25%





Night all.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 08-16-2007 @ 05:20 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 10:55 PM EDT (US)     26 / 42       
Iro's units blow aside from FP and in some cases light cannon (being nerfed).

So .. these nerfs will make their weaknesses shine through more. Balanced perfectly? Hell no, but then again what is ..

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Beatnik Joe
Skirmisher
posted 08-16-07 11:03 PM EDT (US)     27 / 42       
You will lose half of your light cannons to culvs before they can fire a single shot
Your opponent has massed both falconets and culverins at this point? And you can't put 30% ranged resistance cavalry inside to punish all of that expensive artillery? Realize that culvs only outrange light cannons by 2 in the patch yet have only one job -- killing arty. Light cannons on the other hand both kill arty and do a reasonable job at clearing meatshield.
Just imagine that your only counter to cannons is cav. And not just cav, but fairly sucky cav.
I still can't see what's so sucky about Kanya Horsemen. They have a cheaper price, less hitpoints, less attack, but superior ranged resistance. At best you could argue that hussars are slightly better.

Anyhow, all cav are getting a boost in this patch -- Kanya even slightly moreso than others. 30% ranged resistance (!) gives them every opportunity to get inside and do damage. Unfortunately, now it's not just damage, but double damage. Light cannons and the simple cav RR% boost were plenty for this purpose... piling on additional aid to this civ (which has yet to face adversity of any kind) just seems completely unnecessary.

In the end, we'll have to see how it all really turns out once the patch is out there!

Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style

[This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 08-16-2007 @ 11:05 PM).]

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 08-17-07 01:53 AM EDT (US)     28 / 42       
You are right, normally i mass heavy cannons and culvs, not falcs and culvs. And if his only anti cannon are kanya, i just feel sorry for him.

You say they are slightly worse then hussars. I think it is more then slightly, but ok. I think we can all agree that hussars are slighlty pointless late game. So if hussars are pointless, what are kanyas? Indeed, sucky.

And like brtn said, besides FP and LC iro dont have really good units. Sure with warchief iro they are all decent, but nothing special. With both FP and LC nerved, they do allready quite lot worse, but with also their map control, and their entire playing style nerved, they can use a boost.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

NerVe_Viper
Age Sanctuary Admin
(id: FeaR_VipeR)
posted 08-17-07 03:00 AM EDT (US)     29 / 42       
Where are these recorded games? Was unable to find any looking here or at Age Sanctuary, but would be interested in watching a couple.
They're in the PR 35+ replays forum.

http://agesanctuary.com/index.php?showforum=302

You might need to go back a few pages to find some of them.
Beatnik Joe
Skirmisher
posted 08-17-07 07:06 AM EDT (US)     30 / 42       
You are right, normally i mass heavy cannons and culvs, not falcs and culvs.
Ah, fair enough. However, that does mean that the Iroquois has gone through age 3 without having to worry about serious arty all along. I do have to admit that we may find melee cav doing their jobs better against forest prowlers in 1.04, which could help the situation a bit.
You say they are slightly worse then hussars. I think it is more then slightly, but ok. I think we can all agree that hussars are slighlty pointless late game.
I think that's part of why we see it a little differently -- I don't see hussars as being pointless late game for a lot of situations. They're not perfect, but they can be quite effective. The problem (in my opinion) has been that they path poorly and take more damage from ranged units than they should. With the 1.04 ranged resistance boost, the 2nd problem is lessened (though the first still remains.)

My prediction is that this is going to make all cavalry a great deal more effective than they were before, so long as they engage in the proper places (i.e. preferring open ground to uglier forested terrain and complex building-packed bases.) Kanya's ranged hitpoints were improved very nicely, so I believe that this would have been enough. Having them do double damage along with being able to tank against ranged damage means that you really won't be able to risk using artillery to fight the Iroquois. Which means you are back to using melee cav of your own to stop Forest Prowlers.

Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-17-07 07:38 AM EDT (US)     31 / 42       
Iro units are far from "blow", especially for late game

Aenna - Excellent late game unit, cost no gold and no wood, its res is both fast and safe in late game, it does reasonable damage (33% more than skirmishers), with 18 range after Larcross upgrade, massive amount of HP for a bow unit, it gets an insane 45% upgrades from 4 cards, and this is excluding team infantry scout and new ways infantry breast plate.

Tomahawk - same late game excellence, better range than muskts, and more upgrades.

Kanya - boy you are wrong about them being "sucky" against artillery. lets just compare them to uhlans - they have 32% more hp, 35% more artillery damage, yet only 16.7% more res cost, pretty much the same late game VS cost.

Mantlet - this unit is a late game monster, overshadowed by FP and the fact iro seldom have to go into late game.. if I am no mistaken this unit benefit from every bloody iro unit boost cards apart from cavalry upgrades, that equals to total of 85% hp boost and 75% att boost from card! and that its popspace can be reduced to half at just 1 pop, this is for a unit that is already quite good with veteran base and 400 HP with 50% ranged resistance, decent attack and siege damage, and dont have the "heavy infantry" class tag, basically a far superior grenadier.
Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 08-17-07 11:43 AM EDT (US)     32 / 42       
The major nerf to Iro is now they are more predictable; they can't rush as well because their colo units suck and they can't get them out so fast, and they can't FI because GH and LC have been nerfed, leaving them with really only one option - FF, and now that is going to be hurt by a rush a lot more.

Edit: Also, we may be underestimating the colonial cav boost. Now they might be decent vs Forest prowlers so there is a reliable way of beating them.

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe

[This message has been edited by Lord_RichJP (edited 08-17-2007 @ 11:58 AM).]

Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 08-17-07 12:11 PM EDT (US)     33 / 42       
With this ranged resistance improvement, they are going to shrug off 30% of ranged damage. Then they are going to do double damage against all artillery.

I anticipate a problem here. I'll leave it at that.
I have to agree with you here.

I think they went about balancing this cav problem the wrong way. LI imo should have got a negative multiplier and the cav ranged recist left alone.

I might be bias on this but now I will have to struggle more to protect my flimsy organs against cav. Seeing how the main two anti cav units (musks and Dragoons) now do thier job less efficiently.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-17-07 10:03 PM EDT (US)     34 / 42       
The major nerf to Iro is now they are more predictable; they can't rush as well because their colo units suck and they can't get them out so fast, and they can't FI because GH and LC have been nerfed, leaving them with really only one option - FF, and now that is going to be hurt by a rush a lot more.
GHFI is nerfed, but it doesnt mean a general FI is nerfed as much.

2 range reduction will make very very little difference, because as is culverin beat LC prety well, its the fact that you dont get any free culv but he gets 4 that is the problem with their FI

rush will be slower, but wont be much weaker, i am sure you will see some creative use for the starting travios.
Also, we may be underestimating the colonial cav boost. Now they might be decent vs Forest prowlers so there is a reliable way of beating them.
as is, the only fortress cavalry beat FP properly is lancer, i dont that extra 11% ranged HP is going to make much difference, when you still have to buy stable and upgrade them to match FP.
Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 08-19-07 05:32 AM EDT (US)     35 / 42       
If Iro FI without GH, they will die - they couldn't last long enough to beat an attack without it.

Their rush will be slower, so there will be enough time to prepare/click age up, which makes it weaker.

Also, I'm pretty sure cuirs beat FP reliably in fortress, but other than that I agree that the extra RR wont make much difference.

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Walker_5
Skirmisher
posted 08-19-07 08:56 AM EDT (US)     36 / 42       
Seriously, I just watched the recs, and I am amazed at what one can do with Iro!

Start harrasing with 10 tomas pre 5 min.
At the same time reaching fortress pre 8 min.
Starting attacks in fortress, but switch to boom at ~12 min
Reaches 99 villagers pre 18 min while still starting to mass FP's...

How can ANY euro civ match this?!

AgeSanctuary Staff member.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-19-07 07:36 PM EDT (US)     37 / 42       
If Iro FI without GH, they will die - they couldn't last long enough to beat an attack without it.
the only civ had GH was iro, yet was iro the only civ in aoe3 history to do FI?

no.
Their rush will be slower, so there will be enough time to prepare/click age up, which makes it weaker.
you kinda missing point on why is their harrass so good - it is a effort of them having to commit to a rush or FF, they get a free WH, they can get 10 ranged rushing units (which is good for both rushing an harrass) in the time you can only make 5, and the non-food part of this army's cost is provided by the same politician that also helps them FF(wise woman).

sure it will be slower and slower does eual to weaker, but they will just use the starting travios on something else to make up for the speed loss.
Also, I'm pretty sure cuirs beat FP reliably in fortress, but other than that I agree that the extra RR wont make much difference.
yeah its not a problem since all civs have cuirs.. oh wait..
How can ANY euro civ match this?!
spanish could so something similar, but not as well as iros for sure.
Walker_5
Skirmisher
posted 08-20-07 09:36 AM EDT (US)     38 / 42       
I would like to see how fast Spain could get to 99 villagers with a really good player.
They are limited by three TC's and the villager training speed.

Perhaps with the Medicin card, they could speed up the villager production some, but still they are a lot slower then the natives 250% villager training speed with full firepit.
Russia which is supposed to be a boom nation can't even get close to this villager production speed...
It makes no sence.

AgeSanctuary Staff member.
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 08-20-07 11:38 AM EDT (US)     39 / 42       
Which other civs can still FI? For port it is just another way of losing, they have small chance of ever reaching fortress. Otto can do it yes, but it isnt exactly hard to counter.

And LC:
They get barely countered by culverin, and 2 range will make a large difference.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 08-20-07 01:38 PM EDT (US)     40 / 42       
the only civ had GH was iro, yet was iro the only civ in aoe3 history to do FI?

no.
Is Iro the only civ in the history of the game without 1000 food or coin?

Yes.

Is FI normally a viable option on any non-texas map?

No.
yeah its not a problem since all civs have cuirs.. oh wait..
Just wanted to point out it's not just lancers that win like you said, oh and I missed merc cav aswell. Besides, I'm sure ES balance testers are good enough so .10 RR will make all cav almost as good as cuirs vs FPs

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-22-07 07:02 PM EDT (US)     41 / 42       
I would like to see how fast Spain could get to 99 villagers with a really good player.
They are limited by three TC's and the villager training speed.
you dont necessarily need 99 vils, spanish can send their eco boost cards faster and use that extra res (from not speeding up boom) on an army that constantly engages opponent.
Which other civs can still FI? For port it is just another way of losing, they have small chance of ever reaching fortress. Otto can do it yes, but it isnt exactly hard to counter.
pure FI isnt something that really concerns me in 1.04, it is the semi-FI, he attacks a bit in fortress, just as you have turtled a bti and got yourslef a decent army, you are met by 4 LC + 22 merc natives...
Is Iro the only civ in the history of the game without 1000 food or coin?

Yes.
huh?
Just wanted to point out it's not just lancers that win like you said, oh and I missed merc cav aswell. Besides, I'm sure ES balance testers are good enough so .10 RR will make all cav almost as good as cuirs vs FPs
actually cuirs don't beat FP well, they do better than colonial cavs but if they actually owned FP then French would certainly be used a lot more.

the only merc cav that beats FP properly is mamelukes, and Elmiti (very hard to come by in age3), hackapell die too fast and still requires 2 hits, stradiots requires 3~4 hits depending on upgrades on each side, but they also die a bit too fast.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 08-22-2007 @ 07:05 PM).]

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 08-22-07 07:55 PM EDT (US)     42 / 42       
pure FI isnt something that really concerns me in 1.04, it is the semi-FI, he attacks a bit in fortress, just as you have turtled a bti and got yourslef a decent army, you are met by 4 LC + 22 merc natives...
I don't disagree that FI or semi-FI by Iro is weak, but this is all owned by melee cav .. not to mention which is being a bit boosted.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
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