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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Possible Asian civs changes on next patch(official).
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Topic Subject:Possible Asian civs changes on next patch(official).
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n_maser
Skirmisher
posted 12-04-07 06:31 PM EDT (US)         
ndia: The concern is they are too slow early game (5 vill start, vills cost 100 wood, 8% XP penalty). There is also a concern that they struggle vs. massed HI late game because Gurkha don’t receive the counter-infantry rifling tech that European civs receive. Also, there are concerns about wonders and elephants but I believe those are only issues because of their lack of econ strength early game.



Proposed solution:



· Remove XP penalty

· +1 vills, -1 food crate

· Either allow the Gurkha a counter-infantry rifling tech in some way OR give them +0.5 multiplier vs. HI with the Disciplined and Honored upgrades respectively.

· Leave elephants as they are, improve Mansabdar aura to 15% perhaps?

· Leave wonders as they are



China: The concern here is that Disciples are too good, that their rush is too good, and that their team cards are too good. On the other hand their anti-cav is weak.



Proposed solution:



· Raise Disciple cost to 100 food, leave stats as they are

· Reduce the number of Disciples you receive for aging with the ‘disciple’ wonder:



Colonial: 4

Fortress: 8

Industrial: 14

Imperial: 28



· As long as we give lesser civs slight boosts their rush will not be seen as a problem so leave their early game as is aside from Disciples.

· Their team cards (team 7 manchu, team 5 hand mortars) were age4 cards in testing but were apparently moved to age3. Need to either reduce the number received with the shipment or move them in age (I assume we’ll reduce the number).

· Leave their anti-cav as it, it is this way for a reason.

Take away 1 food crate from the Porcelain Tower wonder.



Japan: The main concern I’ve seen with Japan is based around the Ashigaru musketeer (I didn’t see this coming… /sarcasm). It receives tons of upgrades and eventually has an insane attack.



Proposed solution:



· Not really sure what we could do here. Can’t reduce their speed or it’s just another musketeer. Can’t really pull the Daimyo or Shogun, can’t pull a wonder, can’t pull a card. Perhaps the 2 attack cards they receive are nerfed down to 15% from 20%?
Here.
AuthorReplies:
Dr House
Skirmisher
(id: RealityFatalityz)
posted 12-04-07 06:42 PM EDT (US)     1 / 37       
I agree entirely with nearly everything ES_WackO stated, but I think that japan is fine as is.
The major complaint against them is the attack of the ashiguru, but
1) they are more expensive and take longer to train
2) fall quickly to massed bows
3) are not too overpowered in the early game

Japan loses 9 of 10 games if rushed insanely early, berries don't gather that fast, plus shrines really end up only equaling 5~ villagers even later on in the game.

Wonders are fine, but I would advocate 3 yumi/2 ashiguru/1 nag over the 1 samurai you get with torii gates in discovery-colonial age up

India's boost ideas are great, maybe give them one more wood crate over one more villager as a start so they don't become some overpowering sepoy rushing civ, just like ottos in 1.01 vanilla

׺°˜`°º×RealityFatality׺°˜`°º×
"So, what do you guys think? What's theverdict? OP, or do I need to stop smoking crack?"
"I don't have hard drives. I just keep 30 chinese teenagers in my basement and force them to memorize numbers"


[This message has been edited by Kiverly Spears (edited 18-12-2008 @ 9:21 PM).]
Sir Snoopy
Skirmisher
posted 12-04-07 06:59 PM EDT (US)     2 / 37       
Disiples will now be worthless.

That's ok, though, I like everything else.

Retired GameReplays.org Senior Replay Reviewer
World Class Drum Corps International Mellophonist 2009
Proud Winner of "Best Newbie Award" BFME2H, a long time ago
N_E_Patriots
Skirmisher
posted 12-04-07 07:34 PM EDT (US)     3 / 37       
@Reality: I thought you meant that japanese should age up with ALL of those units at start up, and I was like "WTF?". But anyway, I agree with everything except the 1 ville - 1 food crate. What's the point? India still needs food to age up, so it just takes longer for that extra ville to get it back. I don't get it

I lost in the AOE3H FRR
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General_America
Skirmisher
posted 12-04-07 08:04 PM EDT (US)     4 / 37       
Another thing with India (And I am by no means an expert at balancing) is maybe the Agra Fort? It seems pointless unless it acts soley as a military production facility


Perhaps a small attack boost?
Dr House
Skirmisher
(id: RealityFatalityz)
posted 12-04-07 08:08 PM EDT (US)     5 / 37       
@ N_E Patriots

That new villie is worth more that the 100 food crate, in fact, it is worth 100 wood crate only after it has been used up to make a new villie, about 40 seconds into the game.

In 37 seconds, one villie can gather the 100 food to make up for the crate, and in 40 it is all profit from there.

That villie will make an enormous impact on the indian economy, probably lower their age time by about 13-20 seconds, which im sure we all agree is really important in the early game

Off Topic: You guys skated away last night N_E Patriots, i thought that Hail MAry was going into the endzone once it was caught, still don't understand why he didn't lateral it to the open guy running down the sideline. x_x

׺°˜`°º×RealityFatality׺°˜`°º×
"So, what do you guys think? What's theverdict? OP, or do I need to stop smoking crack?"
"I don't have hard drives. I just keep 30 chinese teenagers in my basement and force them to memorize numbers"


[This message has been edited by Kiverly Spears (edited 18-12-2008 @ 9:21 PM).]
Sir Snoopy
Skirmisher
posted 12-04-07 08:49 PM EDT (US)     6 / 37       
off topic: Laterals are dangorous.

Retired GameReplays.org Senior Replay Reviewer
World Class Drum Corps International Mellophonist 2009
Proud Winner of "Best Newbie Award" BFME2H, a long time ago
N_E_Patriots
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 00:17 AM EDT (US)     7 / 37       
Off topic: Hey, That was the craziest game I have seen in a long time, and I almost died when he caught that pass.

Uh and yea india...

I lost in the AOE3H FRR
Support Gay Pride!
Michael Jackson is innocent!
I smell.
As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 12-05-07 00:27 AM EDT (US)     8 / 37       
India:

Remove XP penalty: Agree. 8% isn't a huge nerf, but together with the wood vill cost, it's enough to set India back a long way.

+1 vills, -1 food crate: I'm on the fence about this one. To begin with, messing with starting crates and vills has a dramatic and immediate effect on a civ's OPness. The Sioux were middling, then suddenly #1 after receiving an extra crate. An extra vill is even more powerful, all other things being equal. Taking away a food crate may not be enough compensation for the advanced age-up time that extra vill will grant India. Or it may all but negate the bonus, only time will tell, but currently aging up with India means food gathers more slowly, so that missing crate is going to hurt you more than just what it will take to replace it.

Gurkha boost: Yes. In any way you can. They should be at least as good as wakina rifles currently are, with New Ways.

China:

The problem of disciple rushing is that they are both too plentiful and rather strong on their own, even without upgrade cards. giving fewer disciples won't ruin them for the midgame, but it might make rushing less potent an option. Raising the cost makes disciple rushing still possible, but you have to commit to it. I'm perfectly happy with that, some people will whine.

Japan: Nerf the attack cards, but think about giving one of their cav units some better stats right out of the box. Nags suck.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 01:58 AM EDT (US)     9 / 37       
@saffah, but india isnt a balanced civ, they are up.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Slomo
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 02:26 AM EDT (US)     10 / 37       
Saffah, do you realize that it will take that extra villager 120 seconds to collect the 100 food that was lost due to the crate? Thats two minutes... The extra villager is not of any benefit until 2 minutes have elapsed in the game already. The change will not make any real contribution to India's age up times.

The issue of the higher villager costs is still not addressed as they still don't receive any "bonus" to compensate for the higher costs associated with villager production. The "free villager with shipment" can never make up the difference in costs. India still pays out of pocket for the higher costs. Even the woodcutting upgrades are pathetic as they are worth about 400 VS only(equal to the cost difference of 8 villagers) and are basically null after age 2 as any player can upgrade the techs from the market as well. It would actually be better to remove the woodcutting "bonus" all together and just simply provide India with an additional villager or 100 starting wood.
scriv1984
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 04:59 AM EDT (US)     11 / 37       
I can see the XP penalty's logic. In the times i've been to fortress, I have usually taken control of the game with their great elephant shipments. I can see reason for reducing the penalty, but perhaps it should be halved to 4%. This is especially true in maps with herdables...I managed to secure 15 herdables on a mongolia map which meant I recieved shipments more regularly than my spanish opponent. I know this is not a regular scenario, but it has to be taken into account.

ESO2 - Crashtest

"I don't have 3 hours to break through your 50 layers of walls to kill you.
Real men play without walls." LordKivlov
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 05:19 AM EDT (US)     12 / 37       
That was wackos first idea, we showed him it sucked.

India is just way too weak. They dont have any good elephant shipments. Yes their shipments are decent enough, but the elephants you get are NOT good. That is both true for your mahout and your siege elephant shipments.

And allthough XP gives more immediate benefit, others can use those herdables for food. If your opponent would have gotten 15 herdables and wouldnt have let them fatten, then he still had 750 food he could have gathered very fast. If he would have let them fatten, he would have had enormous ammount of food.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 06:45 AM EDT (US)     13 / 37       
OMG

Wacko OP.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 06:47 AM EDT (US)     14 / 37       
Euh these werent exactly his original ideas...

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Slomo
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 07:07 AM EDT (US)     15 / 37       
lol 10 wood reduction on houses was his idea of balancing out India's early age economy... He is also unaware that Deciples can convert but that is a story for another day
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 11:02 AM EDT (US)     16 / 37       
W00t now he also agrees with flail elephant HP boost and removal of light cavalry tag from siege elephants

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 12-05-07 11:20 AM EDT (US)     17 / 37       
Saffah, do you realize that it will take that extra villager 120 seconds to collect the 100 food that was lost due to the crate? Thats two minutes... The extra villager is not of any benefit until 2 minutes have elapsed in the game already. The change will not make any real contribution to India's age up times.
I didn't realize it was that long, no. Thanks for doing the math for me.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
LordPatrick18
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 11:21 AM EDT (US)     18 / 37       
India: The concern is they are too slow early game (5 vill start, vills cost 100 wood, 8% XP penalty). There is also a concern that they struggle vs. massed HI late game because Gurkha don’t receive the counter-infantry rifling tech that European civs receive. Also, there are concerns about wonders and elephants but I believe those are only issues because of their lack of econ strength early game.



Proposed solution:



· Remove XP penalty

· +1 vills, -1 food crate

· Either allow the Gurkha a counter-infantry rifling tech in some way OR give them +0.5 multiplier vs. HI with the Disciplined and Honored upgrades respectively.

· Leave elephants as they are, improve Mansabdar aura to 15% perhaps?

· Leave wonders as they are
Looks good, and needed, although removing the shipment penalty completely maybe too much too soon. Half it first, see what happens then.
China: The concern here is that Disciples are too good, that their rush is too good, and that their team cards are too good. On the other hand their anti-cav is weak.



Proposed solution:



· Raise Disciple cost to 100 food, leave stats as they are

· Reduce the number of Disciples you receive for aging with the ‘disciple’ wonder:



Colonial: 4

Fortress: 8

Industrial: 14

Imperial: 28


· As long as we give lesser civs slight boosts their rush will not be seen as a problem so leave their early game as is aside from Disciples.

· Their team cards (team 7 manchu, team 5 hand mortars) were age4 cards in testing but were apparently moved to age3. Need to either reduce the number received with the shipment or move them in age (I assume we’ll reduce the number).

· Leave their anti-cav as it, it is this way for a reason.

Take away 1 food crate from the Porcelain Tower wonder.
Disciples are very hard to judge. I think the best solution is to make it so only monks convert, and disciples cost pop, as well as reducing age up amount (the new figures seem fine). But 100 food price is fine for now.

Porcelain Tower, I'm not so mad on this change. The food crates are fine with me, it's the trickle that bugs me. 4 Villagers is just too much. Make it 1.5 or 2 vilsl, and make it increase with age.

Team cards - move them up an age, perfect.

As for their anti-cav, I think they are right for now leaving them as they are. Chinese fast rush beats *LI - Disciples - and HI - CkN. But it doesn't beat cav. If Chinese pikes were as good as european ones, then they woudl have the Ultimate rush at 6:30 - countering any defence unit you may have. Maybe give Keshiks more hitpoints, but not urgent IMO.


Finally there is a big change that they need to implement to euro and nativ civs over time. They need to adjust the countering system to that of the Asians - Lower base attack - bigger multipliers. This would greatly improve hte game IMO, but will take a long time to implement.
Japan: The main concern I’ve seen with Japan is based around the Ashigaru musketeer (I didn’t see this coming… /sarcasm). It receives tons of upgrades and eventually has an insane attack.



Proposed solution:



· Not really sure what we could do here. Can’t reduce their speed or it’s just another musketeer. Can’t really pull the Daimyo or Shogun, can’t pull a wonder, can’t pull a card. Perhaps the 2 attack cards they receive are nerfed down to 15% from 20%?
Japanese are pretty balanced IMO. Maybe change one of the cards to increase hitpoints? But 15% attack for both works too.


Woudl liek to see the proposed changes to euro civs too .

And also does anyone know when around they plan on bringing out the next patch?

Congratulations Serge - Winner of the FFA Spring Series 2008
Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 11:41 AM EDT (US)     19 / 37       
I think for TWC and Vanilla the first balance patch was sometime in January, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was January again, and plus that makes it an extremely long time since TWC 1.04 so it fits that trend too

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 01:17 PM EDT (US)     20 / 37       
@LordPatrick18, have you ever played india or seriously looked at what they get? Their settler are more expensive than french settler, and french settler gather everything 25% faster, and not on base rate. India only get first 2 wood upgrades. There is no reason at all for shipment penalty.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

SomeCallMeTim
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 01:59 PM EDT (US)     21 / 37       
Pardon my French but WTF is Wacko smoking? 3 proposed back to back nerfs to the Chinese who are already gimped enough as is.

The team cards I agree should be moved to age 4 or reduced slightly.

The Porcelain tower proposed change I am meh about.

The disciple nerf is annoying.

Might want to tweak fireship damage or dock HP while you are at it but that only applies to water maps.

What galls me so much is not that their anti-cavalry is bad but that their own cavalry is next to useless. Steppe riders, Keshiks, Iron Flails, and Meteor Hammers are all complete crap and probably the least cost effective units around. More cavalry than the other civs but whats the point if they all suck? This leads me to my next point. The banner system is a HUGE penalty, not a different playing style. There is no two ways about it. Everyone already knows stronger expensive units are more effective than weaker cheaper units cost wise so China is gimped in that fashion but adding in the banner system is just plain sadism. Not only do all of China's anti-cav units not counter cavalry at all but there is nothing China can do against single unit spam. Forgot about cavalry, a mass of musketeers will sweep China away because you can't only build chukonus by themselves, their one and only worthwhile unit.

Which leads me to my next point. Chinese artillery might as well not even exist. The flamethrower is useless and exceeds the organ gun in general shitiness, the flying crow has that ridiculous 240 second spawn even in imperial age because coding it so that it trains faster in fortress and industrial in addition to the auto-upgrade is obviously just too damn hard.

The Chinese player only has one effective strategy, spamming disciples fast and hard. The old han army is the only halfway decent one but even with 3 pikemen it folds under cavalry and the rest of the banner armies just get crappier from there on out and never get built.
LordKivlov
Royal Guard
posted 12-05-07 02:23 PM EDT (US)     22 / 37       
Japanese are pretty balanced IMO. Maybe change one of the cards to increase hitpoints? But 15% attack for both works too.
Hows about changing the Close Combat card to only affect close combat fighting and not boost all actions damage.

I'd also like to see Crits removed entirely from the game, or at the very least let me disable the stupid text. The hell do I care if he crit me? I can't see my freaking units under all the Critical Hit! spam when they spam disciples at me.

Proud Citizen of Sovietcanuckistan

[This message has been edited by LordKivlov (edited 12-05-2007 @ 05:21 PM).]

AI Guy
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 05:08 PM EDT (US)     23 / 37       
Disciples Nerf - The right way to nerf disciples individually, but the only real way to make them un-OP is by nerfing the wonder by perhaps even more.

Right nerf to Porcelain Tower, that thing was OP.

___________
[aizone.uni.cc] - Never gonna get updated in your life

[This message has been edited by AI Guy (edited 12-05-2007 @ 05:09 PM).]

LordPatrick18
Skirmisher
posted 12-06-07 02:16 AM EDT (US)     24 / 37       
@LordPatrick18, have you ever played india or seriously looked at what they get? Their settler are more expensive than french settler, and french settler gather everything 25% faster, and not on base rate. India only get first 2 wood upgrades. There is no reason at all for shipment penalty.
Easy does it, is all I'm saying.

Congratulations Serge - Winner of the FFA Spring Series 2008
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 12-06-07 02:18 AM EDT (US)     25 / 37       
And you are not making sense.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

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