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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » The other patch plans (and india) by Wacko
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Topic Subject:The other patch plans (and india) by Wacko
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Sir Snoopy
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-08 05:53 PM EDT (US)         
Da link
India: The concern is they are too slow early game (5 vill start, vills cost 100 wood, 8% XP penalty). There is also a concern that they struggle vs. massed HI late game because Gurkha don’t receive the counter-infantry rifling tech that European civs receive. Also, there are concerns about wonders and elephants but I believe those are only issues because of their lack of econ strength early game.



Proposed solution:



· Remove XP penalty

· +1 vills, -1 food crate

· Either allow the Gurkha a counter-infantry rifling tech in some way OR give them +0.5 multiplier vs. HI with the Disciplined and Honored upgrades respectively.

· Leave elephants as they are, improve Mansabdar aura to 15% perhaps?

· Leave wonders as they are
Discuss!

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AuthorReplies:
Myll_Erik
Seraph Emeritus
posted 01-28-08 06:22 PM EDT (US)     1 / 43       
I think they would be fine without the XP penalty. Their starting vills/crates aren't that big of a deal, it's just that they don't get their first shipment until most civs are working on their second.

But it sounds like they are making progress!

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JimXIX
Kings Guard
posted 01-28-08 06:27 PM EDT (US)     2 / 43       
I think the agra fort should be upgraded based on the level you build it for. E.g if you use it to go to fortress the stable unit upgrade should be free, if industrial the castle unit upgrade should be free, and so on.

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Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-08 08:00 PM EDT (US)     3 / 43       
Either remove the penalty and keep things as are (economically), or keep the penalty and add a villager.

Gurhka definitely need to counter HI better, they are extremely fragile considering their cost to India's weak economy. I think a CIR technology or approach by integrating it into their age3 upgrade would be fine, because if their economy is boosted, they will be able to mass them more easily.

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Sir Snoopy
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-08 08:02 PM EDT (US)     4 / 43       
Guys, keep in mind that there is more than india.
*is sad for not making news*

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N_E_Patriots
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-08 08:06 PM EDT (US)     5 / 43       
this is gonna be great! Now when India captures cows and they get xp, it will be kinda like a... whats the word that I'm looking for? BONUS!

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Sir Snoopy
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-08 08:34 PM EDT (US)     6 / 43       
lol, well said.I sense an OP Gurkha, imo.

Good luck in the Super Bowl...
Again.

Giants ftw!

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lachlan
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-08 09:43 PM EDT (US)     7 / 43       
Can someone explain to me why they're adding a villager, removing the XP penalty and adding a tech for Gurkhas instead of trying each on its own merits to make sure India doesn't get overboosted?
Silophant
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-08 09:45 PM EDT (US)     8 / 43       
When you only get 3 chances a year to balance the game, you don't do things by half-measures. Apparently.
CunniJA
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-08 10:07 PM EDT (US)     9 / 43       
Wow, if this all winds up being in the patch, then all of us that have been predicting an OP India are right.

"He constantly gets brought up about how good his crackshot is. However, if we bring down the HP aura (+20%) to be +15% or so it shouldn’t be quite as bad."

??? Huh? Yeah, nerfing the Aura would be good, but what the hell does that do to the still very OP crackshot? It's completely irrelevant.

On China: Not good enough. China is still going to be significantly OP if that's all they do. Not a good idea. So, the FF is a whole 10 seconds or so slower, the Disciples still make lots of copies of themselves, their attack is still ridiculous, their HP is borderline ridick too. Silliness.

"Sevastapol- This card allows Russia to make buildings at an insane speed. It currently lets you build buildings at 6x the normal speed I believe (-85% train time). If we took this down to 50% I could still see it being used but not being quite so strong."

Bad idea. Why bother? It's not like Sevastopol is going to win you any games by itself. If you nerf Sevastopol, you nerf Russia's late game significantly, if you nerf Russia's late game significantly, you nerf Russia significantly by taking away their dominant time frame. This is like in TWC 1.04 when they really just screwed the Aztecs over completely. Bad idea. If you do this, you need to boost something in return. Maybe attach a Forts/ Blockhouses HP boost onto Sevastopol with that nerf as well. That could make things interesting. Besides, who have you heard complaining about getting Sevastopol lamed lately? They are making a non-issue into an issue.

It was also discussed that Macehualtins could use some sort of boost so they were more useful late game. I was already hoping to move their multiplier against Heavy Infantry up from x1.5 to x2. An interesting idea one guy had was to take the Ruthlessness card (affects Eagle Runner Knights) and adjust it in some way so it doesn’t boost Eagle Runner Knights but rather helps out Macehualtins. (ERK are seen as too strong whereas Maces too weak) People are also wanting Coyote Runners boosted, however I believe that if we fix the counter system in general this change would not be needed.

The latter... the former would make them too strong in my opinion. Why not nerf the amount that Ruthlessness gives to ERK villie bonus down to 1, and up Macehualtin vs. HI by .5. Then the card still keeps at least it's initial element around in some fashion. If they just give Macehualtins 2x right off the bat and say end of story, they will be too good. Like Ghurkas, Macehualtins really just need the boost late game. Early on they are decent.

"Spies/Grenadiers- These units seem to hop up a lot as well. The suggestion I made to them (and that many agreed would be a good change) was that the Grenadiers has its ‘HeavyInfantry’ tag removed and Spies now get the ‘HeavyInfantry’ tag. This would give spies a direct counter (they currently have none) and would make Grenadiers more effective against the units they are supposed to counter (ranged infantry). Although some think these changes may not be enough they seem to be pretty safe changes that should help both units work as they were intended."

Yeah, yeah, yeah... old news. However, Spies don't need a direct counter and neither do Pets, I don't see why they need to give Spies a direct counter. Sentries and Irregualrs can be produced with China, and they have no direct counter, but are we worried? No. Why? Because they suck, and Spies do too. Again, making an issue out of a non-issue. I believe that the Agent Rush was fixed, no?

The Brit thing was old news.

Cuira Age 2: No. It's only relevant in treaty. If you let the French dude get that late game then he should win anywhooser. See my opinions on the suggested Sevastopol nerf for details.

Ports: Old, borrowed from others. I wouldn't recommend Distributivsm. For Ports, I think that Colbertism (boosted) would be the right pick. Although, if I really had it my way, the Ports would be able to build Bakeries (Banks only Food) instead. That takes care of their problems. The bakeries would mean that only their Discovery Age eco would be bad, but their Colonial economy could be jumpstarted with a Bakery Wagon just like the Dutch Bank Wagon, and boom, that more than makes up for poor Discovery Age economy. Then Ports would actually have enough food to really but their currently shitty civ bonus to use.

"Ottoman: People are wanting them to become less map dependent. They are very good on maps with a trade route or water but suffer on the few maps that do not have either of these. They’re also wanting the mosque technologies to be cheaper, or at least become a little better."

Boosting the Ottos??? What's next, boosting the Sioux? Probably the worst idea of all of these.

"Confusing Rollover Text: This had nothing to do with balance but though it should be addressed anyways. Players get confused by the rollover when they see an Uhlan as “Light Cavalry” and want their skirmishers to beat them because Skirmishers have a bonus against “Light Cavalry”. The unit classifications were changed somewhere along the line, but the rollover text wasn’t updated to reflect these changes."

Old but also necessary in my opinion.

"Outlaws: There are still plenty of players wanting Outlaws to be more useful, as it stands most civs simply cannot use them because they cost too much pop or train too slowly. Would like to look at helping them out perhaps a little more, probably decreasing the amount of pop space they require."

Good, finally something I agree with completely.

"Treaty: People would still like some balance changes for treaty. I’m opposed to it unless we can do it without affecting supremacy."

A man after my own heart in ways, except.....

NOOBS would still like some balance changes for treaty. I’m opposed to it IN GENERAL.

Fixed.

"Spain and the 2 Falconet card: The strength behind Spain is that they can spam anti-cav shipments while also sending this shipment to wreck havoc on people. I’d rather we boost civs or Culverins in some way rather than nerfing this card."

Another good idea. Culvs do need a boost, range if you ask me.

"Arsenal: There were some good ideas here, mainly the Arsenal being allowed to be built in age2. The other was that the techs are changed so that when a tech is researched that unit is simply improved against it’s counter as opposed to a HP boost or a speed boost. Also, a cost reduction on Socket Bayonet was suggested."

Old but good.

Further Port Notes: Ditto.

Animal/Guardian armies: Tough shit to the complainers, I say leave it.

Japan: Not enough probably.

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[This message has been edited by CunniJA (edited 01-28-2008 @ 10:49 PM).]

DLKels
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-08 02:13 AM EDT (US)     10 / 43       
hmmm I', playing India lately and I think if they do all of that a lot more people will be playing India because they will become op.

I'm for removing the exp penalty and improving Gurkhas in some way.


Anyway:

**Portuguese- As much as I don’t want to it seems others want some sort of boost for Portuguese. The idea of some sort of card with a Culverin in age3 seems to be popular. Also, perhaps a Distributivism card (the wood trickle card) could get put in the place of a weaker/lesser used card.**


Whats es have against the ports? They've been one of the weakest civs since aoe3 was released. They were my first civ.

Yes, they can be played well but there is 0 margin for error with ports, zero.

...and I disagree with anything that boosts ottos. wth...
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-08 04:12 AM EDT (US)     11 / 43       
Wacko probably allready forgot, but he also told us he agreed siege elephants need some of their tags removed, preferably ranged cav tag so skirms dont get a bonus vs them.

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CunniJA
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-08 01:30 PM EDT (US)     12 / 43       
I agree Kels. Those are the only two things I advocate for the India changes. Mansadbars are just fine.

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Lord Berminator
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-08 04:16 PM EDT (US)     13 / 43       
CHANGE
THE
ELEPHANTS!!!!!!

Minus cost, minus pop, minus train time, minus less attack......

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Sir Snoopy
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-08 04:18 PM EDT (US)     14 / 43       
I think the elephants are good.
You can really win a game with 2 in the right place and time.

*is happy about news*

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Cyclohexane
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-08 04:47 PM EDT (US)     15 / 43       
Base Colonial Stats for all units: This is something that probably should have been in the game from the start anyways. Some units start with their stats in Fortress and therefore get a bigger increase in stats from cards/upgrades that affect them.
Excluding artillery (Siege Elephant is artillery), here is a list of units that have base Fortress statistics:
Arrow Knight
Cassador
Cuirassier
Eagle Knight
Halberdier
Jaguar Prowl Knight
Lancer
Oprichnik
Spahi
Tashunke Prowler (may be an exception here since no further upgrades)
War Wagon

Do you notice that out of the 11 units listed, 3 of them belong to the Aztecs (27%). Most likely, the Tashunke Prowler will be excluded so it is actually 30%. This nerf will affect the Aztecs more than any other civilization. All 3 knight combat cards will be less effective because the base percentages will be lower. Either their new base Colonial stats will need a boost, or maybe we should just quit playing Aztecs altogether. The Eagle Knight will still be useful but the Jaguar Prowl and Arrow Knights are already very 1 dimensional. I for one am not excited to see a boost to maces and be forced to play a bunch of rock throwing light infantry. The game is saturated with light infantry as it is, do we really need more?

I’m not going to just submit problems, I do have a solution to the Aztecs that can take them out of the Colonial Age. The Aztecs have a decent Colonial due to their many methods of rushing. Unfortunately, with the exception of a boat boom, rushing is about the only thing the Aztecs can do well (1. mace rush, 2. mace / coyote rush, 3. puma rush, 4. ZAP rush, 5. puma sling, etc.). However, their early Fortress is weak and weakening their 3 Fortress age units is not going to help the cause in the slightest. Changing ruthlessness, boosting maces, and giving knights colonial stats is going to be a huge nerf and huge playing style change. Just what the game needs, more light infantry!

There is a fix and that is by boosting their early Fortress economy while keeping their Colonial army the same. Since Agrarian Ways was removed (no way to have a plantation and farm to take advantage of hunting / mining bonuses), their early Fortress was significantly decreased and made it very hard to gather gold for the gold expensive Fortress units. One way to fix that problem is by decreasing the training time of Warrior Priests. This will increase the effects of fertility for booming and attack for fighting. If you do not want a direct increase, make the Fencing School shipment affect Warrior Priests differently than other infantry (say -56% train time instead of -40%). This would make them equal with the medicine men train time and allow for a faster recovery after spending tons of resources on weak Colonial units. Warrior Priests are supposed to be a bonus, why do they take 56% longer to spawn than a medicine man?

Why boost maces instead of coyotes? Coyotes could be boosted by making them cost food/gold instead of food/wood. Even if the VS cost is the same, it would be a huge boost to overall macro management of the economy. Maces will never be good raiders because of their speed and can never compete with a skirmisher because of their range / lack of CIR. Ruthlessness is one of the most fun cards to play in the game and is currently the only method I have for making my weak early Fortress economy compete with most civilizations (make theirs weak as well).

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tarheel13
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-08 07:40 PM EDT (US)     16 / 43       
Personally, as a brittish player i think a new fortress age politicion would be a great plan.
jayce
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-08 07:57 PM EDT (US)     17 / 43       
That post was last updated almost 2 months ago. Things have changed a lot. India seems to be a lot more formidable than previously thought.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-08 09:19 PM EDT (US)     18 / 43       
lol, well said.I sense an OP Gurkha, imo.
Wrong.

Gurkha already lose cost effectively to other infantry, and hardly beat heavy infantry, if they even do. The only advantage they hold is range, in age2. After that their cost cripples production and most often players prefer sowars because of this.

Many civs can hold massed infantry battles for ages versus eachother, ever try that with Gurhka? It doesn't work to well.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Sir Snoopy
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-08 09:47 PM EDT (US)     19 / 43       
We'll see.

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schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 01-30-08 04:48 AM EDT (US)     20 / 43       
Lol at those who think india will be OP. After this they might be able to do some kind of sepoy rush, but i am not worried about that. Remember, there age up time will be barely boosted. Only boost to colonial eco (nothing wrong with that since their settler are more expensive than french ones, including 2 market upgrades, they gather slower, and are weaker).

Then they have some decent units in colonial-fortress, like sepoy and ranged camel. But most units just suck. Also late game they dont have decent cards to upgrade their ranged infantry.
Meanwhile mahouts are nothing more than very sucky version of cuirs. Mansabdar elephants are completely pointless and waste of pop/resources. Compared to other asian civs they have worst consulate options, and imo sucky wonders.
Ghurkas cannot counter HI late game. They dont have cannons, and elephants only do decent vs skirms, small meatshield and they completely suck. And india cannot do anything about that meatshield, so they are screwed.

In colonial they also dont have decent melee cav. Some kind of sucky version of uhlan...

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RF_Gandalf
Skirmisher
posted 01-30-08 08:24 AM EDT (US)     21 / 43       
interesting that this was just brought up here now ... Wacko's post was 12/4 - almost 2 months ago. These ideas were discussed on other the fourms long ago.

Anyway, make the changes and patch the game already!!! Then do more frequent small patches for future balance.
Catabre
BFME2H Replay Reviewer - Library Guildsman
posted 01-30-08 09:15 AM EDT (US)     22 / 43       
I can definitely see India becoming OP next patch.

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schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 01-30-08 09:27 AM EDT (US)     23 / 43       
And i can definately seeing china become up, iroquois being deleted and dutch being boosted.

Now we have had that, can we again use arguments when you claim that a civ will be op?

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Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Germanicus
Skirmisher
posted 01-30-08 10:14 AM EDT (US)     24 / 43       
what about making spies countering pets, you have a counter then and spies get something more usefull.( well, if u reduce the bonus damge against natives they are ok)

the_emperor222
CunniJA
Skirmisher
posted 01-30-08 10:31 AM EDT (US)     25 / 43       
Ok then Schild, I will. Here's why I think these changes would make India OP:

1. Because they will have +1 villager and the removal of XP, the wood gathering time is reduced significantly. First off, you have one less villager to have to put on wood. Second, Distributivism gets there faster.

2. Ghurkas will be very powerful in early Fortress. If they made a CIR tech, it would be at an easy building because they aren't going to give India an Arsenal merely for the sake of putting CIR in it. Or, if they put it with the Disciplined upgrade, then you're getting dudes running amok with 2.5x vs. infantry very early in Fortress at what is essentially no extra cost (unless they actually did boost the Disciplined upgrade cost.

3. Mansadbars would be too strong. Yeah, they do need a slight boost but 15% is too much. It's already hard to focus a Mansadbar, so now when they are boosting guys even more, and you can't focus them because they are hard to pick out, you're getting big units right on your ass all the time.

Side note: Shoguns/Daimyos need a nerf. A Shogun is running around with +3000 HP in Imperial, they are too damn strong. Leads to huge Ashigaru that you can't do anything about. Ashigaru already have Howdah like attack, the don't need Veteran Cuira like HP too.

Side note 2: I've always found the FF China's strong suit, not the rush really.

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[This message has been edited by CunniJA (edited 01-30-2008 @ 10:38 AM).]

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