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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » TAD Stats
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Topic Subject:TAD Stats
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Garlef
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 00:49 AM EDT (US)         
Thanks must go to ESO Tools for gathering the raw data that makes the following charts possible.

Note:
All data is for Supremacy 1v1 with Mirror games excluded and Game length > 200 seconds

GO = PR Ranks Brigadier through Marshal
FGO = PR Ranks Major through Colonel
CGO = PR Ranks 2nd Lieutenant through Captain
NCO = PR Ranks Lance Corporal through Master Sergeant

(Equal Rank -> means that both players had the same PR Rank, example: Captain vs Captain, Brigadier v Brigadier)

How to read the Civ vs. Civ Table:
The Civ along the left edge is the winning civ.. the columns are the civs that lost.
Example: For Dutch vs Ports, Dutch won 23 and Ports won 16 games.

GO v GO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Russian 97 64 65.98% 5.18%
Chinese 254 158 62.20% 13.57%
Sioux 127 79 62.20% 6.78%
Aztec 94 56 59.57% 5.02%
Dutch 188 102 54.26% 10.04%
Spanish 106 57 53.77% 5.66%
Iroquois 38 19 50.00% 2.03%
Ottoman 134 66 49.25% 7.16%
German 50 24 48.00% 2.67%
Indian 263 120 45.63% 14.05%
Portuguese 69 27 39.13% 3.69%
British 79 30 37.97% 4.22%
Japanese 277 100 36.10% 14.80%
French 96 34 35.42% 5.13%
Total 1872 936
FGO v FGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese 2985 1873 62.75% 16.80%
Russian 700 383 54.71% 3.94%
Aztec 872 474 54.36% 4.91%
Sioux 677 365 53.91% 3.81%
Ottoman 1626 864 53.14% 9.15%
German 783 403 51.47% 4.41%
Dutch 1580 789 49.94% 8.89%
Indian 2264 1097 48.45% 12.74%
Spanish 824 395 47.94% 4.64%
Iroquois 491 233 47.45% 2.76%
British 953 421 44.18% 5.36%
Portuguese 458 188 41.05% 2.58%
Japanese 2596 1026 39.52% 14.61%
French 955 371 38.85% 5.38%
Total 17764 8882
CGO v CGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese 6984 4441 63.59% 18.02%
Ottoman 2693 1540 57.19% 6.95%
Aztec 1540 879 57.08% 3.97%
Sioux 1622 904 55.73% 4.18%
Russian 1963 1089 55.48% 5.06%
German 1365 703 51.50% 3.52%
Dutch 3486 1713 49.14% 8.99%
Iroquois 803 387 48.19% 2.07%
Indian 4036 1906 47.22% 10.41%
Spanish 1625 731 44.98% 4.19%
British 2629 1145 43.55% 6.78%
French 2708 1139 42.06% 6.99%
Japanese 6589 2530 38.40% 17.00%
Portuguese 723 276 38.17% 1.87%
Total 38766 19383
FGO v FGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)
     Az   Br   Ch   Du   Fr   Ge   In   Iro  Ja   Ot   Po   Ru   Si   Sp   Wins
Az -- 24 55 49 25 25 52 26 56 57 16 21 45 23 474
Br 21 -- 60 34 29 16 64 10 84 26 19 15 16 27 421
Chi 74 103 -- 231 125 68 310 58 475 170 64 65 41 89 1873
Du 50 43 90 -- 58 38 109 29 145 75 23 38 39 52 789
Fr 18 20 53 42 -- 25 49 5 52 37 13 22 14 21 371
Ge 13 35 54 45 34 -- 56 8 61 44 13 14 11 15 403
In 48 72 225 86 77 41 -- 27 281 98 27 38 40 37 1097
Ir 17 18 36 25 13 11 37 -- 26 9 6 7 24 4 233
Ja 40 61 212 79 65 57 233 22 -- 105 38 26 33 55 1026
Ot 43 56 126 76 69 49 108 27 157 -- 25 42 26 60 864
Po 10 15 24 16 13 2 18 7 33 27 -- 9 3 11 188
Ru 20 37 53 29 29 8 46 7 79 43 8 -- 6 18 383
Si 34 23 65 34 21 22 39 24 38 33 6 9 -- 17 365
Sp 10 25 59 45 26 18 46 8 83 38 12 11 14 -- 395
Loss 398 532 1112 791 584 380 1167 258 1570 762 270 317 312 429 8882
The following tables are when both players are of the same Rank level (GO, FGO, or CGO)
GO v GO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Iroquois 148 92 62.16% 3.55%
Chinese 562 346 61.57% 13.48%
Russian 182 102 56.04% 4.36%
Sioux 248 136 54.84% 5.95%
Dutch 427 234 54.80% 10.24%
Spanish 190 101 53.16% 4.56%
Aztec 179 92 51.40% 4.29%
British 232 115 49.57% 5.56%
Portuguese 135 66 48.89% 3.24%
Ottoman 284 138 48.59% 6.81%
Indian 561 261 46.52% 13.45%
German 146 60 41.10% 3.50%
Japanese 654 256 39.14% 15.68%
French 222 86 38.74% 5.32%
Total 4170 2085
FGO v FGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese 7073 4280 60.51% 16.26%
Russian 1650 927 56.18% 3.79%
Aztec 2198 1206 54.87% 5.05%
Ottoman 4045 2217 54.81% 9.30%
Sioux 1738 928 53.39% 4.00%
German 1922 991 51.56% 4.42%
Dutch 3982 2009 50.45% 9.15%
Spanish 2096 1005 47.95% 4.82%
Indian 5435 2590 47.65% 12.49%
Iroquois 1240 571 46.05% 2.85%
Portuguese 1283 570 44.43% 2.95%
British 2188 930 42.50% 5.03%
Japanese 6300 2617 41.54% 14.48%
French 2348 908 38.67% 5.40%
Total 43498 21749
CGO v CGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese 16035 9739 60.74% 17.82%
Sioux 3786 2120 56.00% 4.21%
Ottoman 6402 3518 54.95% 7.11%
Russian 4534 2429 53.57% 5.04%
Aztec 3578 1913 53.47% 3.98%
German 3099 1610 51.95% 3.44%
Dutch 8151 4065 49.87% 9.06%
Spanish 3835 1889 49.26% 4.26%
Iroquois 1884 925 49.10% 2.09%
Indian 9537 4576 47.98% 10.60%
British 5942 2666 44.87% 6.60%
French 6051 2586 42.74% 6.72%
Portuguese 1779 727 40.87% 1.98%
Japanese 15381 6234 40.53% 17.09%
Total 89994 44997

[This message has been edited by Garlef (edited 02-06-2008 @ 11:37 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 01:34 AM EDT (US)     1 / 52       
At last

Check out the russians, what the hell o.O Very low usage, very high win in FGO vs. FGO (GO vs. GO probably too small as usual).

Chinese massively on top, no surprise there, great work by ES as usual :P Looks like they really have the japanese bent over and begging for more o.O

The japanese are shockingly low, might have to rethink those ashi nerfs...

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 02-06-2008 @ 01:37 AM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 04:02 AM EDT (US)     2 / 52       
so india is actually mid-ranked as oppose to rock bottom like everyone thinks...

french is almost the weakest despite common belief if it being top 4.

Russian and aztec are amongst the top civs, although everyone thinks they are of the lower tier.

Spanish is almost UP.

stats must be speaking the truth!!

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 02-06-2008 @ 04:03 AM).]

Colonel_UGMO
Veteran Musketeer (Content Contributor)
posted 02-06-08 05:27 AM EDT (US)     3 / 52       
So CGO's are the biggest lamers

Dam thats me

PS I've never played China in rated

ESO NAME: UGMO
RANK: 1st Lieutenant
I AM USING: TAD
I AM PLAYING: The Aztecs, British and Russians
.oO James246: Well, you wouldn't be able to sigg any dumb things I say, because I don't say them. :P Oo.
Grottenmolch
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 07:29 AM EDT (US)     4 / 52       
BIG thx to Garlef!

French and the brits are so damn low? Really weird.

The sioux usage is so low? Arent they op?

I think many players have wandered from Iro to China...

It looks like that french and brits are more up compared to India, lol!

IMO is spanish not so up as it seems (if you check the go vs go section, they seem pretty solid).

And russians and aztecs are the calm and secret winners...
Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 08:29 AM EDT (US)     5 / 52       
Yeah, stats say it all... rofl

Please Garlef could you give us the stats of GO vs GO and FGO vs FGO but not only equal rank but vs everyone within his/her category? (e.g. brigadier not only vs other brigs but also vs lt general etc)

Because I only very seldomly play vs people who have EXACTL my rank, often vs guys 3-5 + or -
Ekanta
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 09:03 AM EDT (US)     6 / 52       
Truth can a chocking if u lived in a dream world for too long.
ganggreene51
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 09:44 AM EDT (US)     7 / 52       
bout time. I was wondering where you went, hoping you didn't leave us. Thanks

To me it is a good judgment of balance if it weren't for dutch. To me dutch throws a wrench into solely looking at stats. But in general these are a good indicator.

These are probably the most unusual stats yet though. Japan doesn't appear UP. This may be do to the new civs getting beat. But then you have india throwing a wrench into that. I'm just shaking my head. Hmmmm.

You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way.


Foy Lyndstrom- "Villagers doing nothing don't do anything."

[This message has been edited by ganggreene51 (edited 02-06-2008 @ 09:48 AM).]

CunniJA
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 01:28 PM EDT (US)     8 / 52       
I agree with the head shaking. I would say that Japan suffers bigtime from the noob factor, but they are low at GO too. I think the stats show that Dutch however, are suffering from the noob factor.

A_S: "Cunni's pic wins thread otherwise failing due to being 5-7 years behind the times."
"Brilliant cunni simply brilliant"
C_MAG: "CunniJA's post is epic win."
exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 03:11 PM EDT (US)     9 / 52       
The stats aren't bad, you just have to look at them more carefully than normal. Obviously, the asian civs were, and still are to some extent, being played massively more than most of the older civs.

When you look at that and then go to civ vs civ win tables, you see that japan is generally losing to both of the other asian civs. They are also losing to the ottomans, and losing profusely against the dutch, which were also played heavily. When you consider those factors, you could argue that japan is not as madly underpowered as the win % stats would suggest, since they are badly losing to the most commonly played civs (chinese and dutch are 2 for 1 against them).

As for the dutch, the chinese (most played) absolutely destroyed them, which dropped their win % noticeably lower than it should be.

Then, the russians for example, you have them stomping the japanese and the ottomans, two of the most played civs. Their win % is inflated higher than it should be.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 02-06-2008 @ 03:19 PM).]

Walker_5
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 03:56 PM EDT (US)     10 / 52       
acctually, you have to look at civ vs civ, make the win % between two civs at a time.

(Russia has one win more then Ottomans in the table above)

AgeSanctuary Staff member.

[This message has been edited by Walker_5 (edited 02-06-2008 @ 04:18 PM).]

Dr House
Skirmisher
(id: RealityFatalityz)
posted 02-06-08 08:40 PM EDT (US)     11 / 52       
all i can say is french are really weak.. i mean, even i always considered them alright/balanced, but they just don't seem to cut it at any level.. perhaps a boost will be in the future?

`RealityFatality`
"So, what do you guys think? What's theverdict? OP, or do I need to stop smoking crack?"
"I don't have hard drives. I just keep 30 chinese teenagers in my basement and force them to memorize numbers"


[This message has been edited by Kiverly Spears (edited 18-12-2008 @ 9:21 PM).]
CunniJA
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 10:34 PM EDT (US)     12 / 52       
The problem is, how do you go about boosting the French? You certainly can't boost Cuira. First off, what are the French really struggling against? I mean, they really are a decent civilization, so I don't see why they are doing so bad. The 2 Rax XBow/Pike spam works pretty well against most civilizations. The Fast Fortress is quite good as well. I don't know why they are doing so poorly. If we can identify that, then we can figure out possible boosts, but at the current time, I don't think we can make any suggestions in that area really yet.

A_S: "Cunni's pic wins thread otherwise failing due to being 5-7 years behind the times."
"Brilliant cunni simply brilliant"
C_MAG: "CunniJA's post is epic win."
exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 02-07-08 00:43 AM EDT (US)     13 / 52       
Well, a general xbow boost in some way has been mulled over by the community basically since the game came out, that'd help the french O.o Ports too, unfortunately it'd also help the germans who seem pretty close to balanced from the win % stats.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 02-07-08 05:53 AM EDT (US)     14 / 52       
rofl rofl rofl

rofl rofl rofl

"unfortunately it'd also help the germans "

AHAHAHA because we all know France<<<Germany. AhahahahaAHA I cant stop laughing sorry. For basically any civ I can use Germany is easily the easiest one to bash on.

"Well, a general xbow boost in some way has been mulled over by the community basically since the game came out"

LMAO srsly you keep cracking me up. YEAH please boost xbows because they are SO WEAK ahahaAHAHa maybe you should see a nice xbow rush I think. The only thing xbows suck against is upgraded/strong HI, however that simply means they need to be CHANGED (better vs HI, weaker overall by a bit) not boosted. Big difference.

In an attempt to explain why France is doing "so badly":

=> People think France is rather strong (well france IS rather decent so no surprise) so they play vs all civs. They are not really afraid of facing op civs etc. However, the french do still get raped pretty hardcore by those civs like dutch and china. Therefore France's win% is pretty low.
A civ like Russia tho is commonly considered weak, therefore the Russia players avoid the OP civs or try to. Therefore Russia has less harder matchups and ergo a better win%.

That just proves that ignoring any backround info and just looking at the stats without using your brain and trying to base balance suggestions on this is complete nonsense.

One reason why I dislike those stats here, they are taken way too seriously and people just look at the numbers and think "hey oh france my fav civ is soo weak BOOST BOOST" without thinking...
Walker_5
Skirmisher
posted 02-07-08 05:58 AM EDT (US)     15 / 52       
French has negative stat vs ALL civs but Ports, whom they tie.

Hard to tell why their numbers are soo bad though.

AgeSanctuary Staff member.
Ekanta
Skirmisher
posted 02-07-08 11:08 AM EDT (US)     16 / 52       
In the same stats from TWC, month after month, french always were below 50% (although the "wise" community "knew" the french to be top 4).
exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 02-07-08 03:22 PM EDT (US)     17 / 52       
Killa, that was the most belligerent reply to a post I've seen in a while from anyone other than killmaim. I wonder if having kill in your name automatically makes you a jerk.

What are you smoking? The germans are ranked above the french in every single stat list here, and hover very close to 50% win in both of the FGO vs FGO lists, without excelling against any of the highly used civs. Maybe they're low on the 2nd GO vs GO list, but the iroquois are on top of that list. Less important but still notable is the fact that germany is beating france when they play each other - usually that wouldn't mean much, but the two civs are very similar in build and play style, moreso than most other civ matches. The numbers say that germany doesn't need a boost, and france and ports do. But obviously your personal opinion is much more important than the ~44k games it took to make just the FGO vs. FGO stats.

Xbows aren't weak, but then again I didn't say they were. I've not only seen xbow rushes, but performed them myself. And I play the germans, too - when I switched to the germans from the japanese, I went up 2.5 PR in a couple of days. I said people have talked about an xbow boost a lot in the past. They don't actually counter anything (with a multiplier - almost every infantry unit in the game has a multiplier against something). A jan rush is far more effective against an xbow civ than, say, the dutch. At times, it was noted that every civ that had xbows for their colonial LI was anywhere from slightly UP to very UP, so people considered an xbow boost. I observed two of those civs currently showing as UP, and brought up that old suggestion, but then rebutted it with the fact that the germans don't need a boost, so if you could read, you would've realized that I actually wasn't even suggesting an xbow boost. I guess you were already laughing to hard to realize that you were a moron.

P.S: Russia, like every other civ, played plenty of games against the chinese (almost 17% of their games) and the dutch (9% of their games). The french played against the chinese in 18.6% of their games. The chinese played against the dutch in about 10.7% of their games.

So russia played against the dutch 9% of the time, while chinese played against them 10.7% of the time. Russia played against the chinese 17% of the time, while french played against them 18.6% of the time. Not much difference in those numbers, and I'm sure that if I tested more civs, their percentages would be close to those values as well.

There's little evidence to suggest that russia in particular avoided matchups against the OP civs. Maybe you should actually look at the stats instead of spewing your opinion as gospel fact.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 02-07-2008 @ 04:27 PM).]

Dr House
Skirmisher
(id: RealityFatalityz)
posted 02-07-08 04:50 PM EDT (US)     18 / 52       
pwn3d

`RealityFatality`
"So, what do you guys think? What's theverdict? OP, or do I need to stop smoking crack?"
"I don't have hard drives. I just keep 30 chinese teenagers in my basement and force them to memorize numbers"


[This message has been edited by Kiverly Spears (edited 18-12-2008 @ 9:21 PM).]
kilmaim
Skirmisher
posted 02-07-08 06:22 PM EDT (US)     19 / 52       
Killa, that was the most belligerent reply to a post I've seen in a while from anyone other than killmaim. I wonder if having kill in your name automatically makes you a jerk.


...and how about our prestigious moderators! Or do you guys only chime in when it's convenient? I'm not starting a flame here - just looking for a little reciprocation and a little consideration...

@exc4libulz1022
Is this along the lines of casting the first stone...eh?



TOPIC
The funny thing is that now the proof is in the pudding! The Brits certainly need a BOOST! STILL! It would seem that all my ranting over how UP the Brits are is finally proven to have legitimacy now that the stats are finally here! Now, don't we think it's time to do something about it. And I'm not talking about an Auto-vet Politician! And I'm not talking about an "INDIRECT" boost - I'm talking about a substantive DIRECT BOOST!

[This message has been edited by kilmaim (edited 02-07-2008 @ 06:30 PM).]

chisquared
Skirmisher
posted 02-08-08 04:26 AM EDT (US)     20 / 52       
well i always thought the french were balanced too, but as mentioned previously it is hard to ignore a large amount of data that says otherwise. Perhaps the idea that the french are balanced is partly an illusion/mental-thing. I know whenever i play against them i always have thoughts like: 'can't let them get those OP cuirr tanks, can't raid their cdbs, better watch out for their x-bow rush, etc etc' when in reality all of these things can be handled ok (in supremacy). also seeing good experts beating dutch/chinese players adds to the illusion if you forget that a lot of the time it is the other way around.

Not too sure exactly why they are struggling so much though, someone should start another thread on it because it is quite interesting. i always felt they were supposed to be a booming civ, but they can be outboomed by british/dutch/firepit-natives and they struggle against a strong military force (ottomans/chinese). maybe their unique bonuses don't deliver the punch when it is needed. eg. cuirrs are great lategame but struggle with pathing in Age3 like all cavalry, cdbs are good but if you plan to fight with them you are losing valuable resource gathering time...

Not sure about boosting though, it will be tricky. 6cdbs start would be too much, you could try 5cdbs+1 villager... anyway, just a few crazy thoughts...

good work on the stats Garlef, certainly raises some interesting points.
Zongo
Skirmisher
posted 02-08-08 04:27 AM EDT (US)     21 / 52       
nice stats, too bad they don't say anything about balance at all
(oh, except that china is OP lol)

Old Indian: Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nursed it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this to me?" And the snake answered, "Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake."

[This message has been edited by Zongo (edited 02-08-2008 @ 04:27 AM).]

Grottenmolch
Skirmisher
posted 02-08-08 05:52 AM EDT (US)     22 / 52       
Exc4libulz1022 and Zongo are right. This is only a hint of balacing because these stats just show how the civs fought each other in certain ranks, not how balanced they are!

It is very surprising, but realistic if you think of russia and aztecs matching against the most used civs.

Due to these stats you can also have the great idea of boosting the CGO players because there are so many of them compared to the FGO and GO! The CGO players can start with two vils+, and the FGO with only one vil+! lol

[This message has been edited by Grottenmolch (edited 02-08-2008 @ 05:52 AM).]

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 02-08-08 03:35 PM EDT (US)     23 / 52       
Russian 97 64 65.98% 5.18%
Chinese 254 158 62.20% 13.57%
Sioux 127 79 62.20% 6.78%
Aztec 94 56 59.57% 5.02%
Dutch 188 102 54.26% 10.04%
Spanish 106 57 53.77% 5.66%
Iroquois 38 19 50.00% 2.03%
Ottoman 134 66 49.25% 7.16%
German 50 24 48.00% 2.67%
Indian 263 120 45.63% 14.05%
Portuguese 69 27 39.13% 3.69%
British 79 30 37.97% 4.22%
Japanese 277 100 36.10% 14.80%
French 96 34 35.42% 5.13%
I'd say this makes complete sense, with exceptions to Russia, Japan and France. Japan I feel is stronger than that, and France should definitely be mid tier. I would predict Russia would be mid ranged or lower too.

Oh well, can't argue the facts.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 02-08-08 10:20 PM EDT (US)     24 / 52       
^ Remember though that the population of GO vs GO games is always far smaller (and therefore, possibly less accurate) than the other game categories. This time, the other categories are all 10-20 times larger in size than their GO counterparts. It'd be foolish to take the CGO vs. CGO stats too seriously, it'd be best if there were a lot more GOs out there to play each other. Unfortunately, there is not, so we are left with FGO vs FGO being probably the best indicator of balance.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

ganggreene51
Skirmisher
posted 02-08-08 10:58 PM EDT (US)     25 / 52       
As far as stats are concerned for balance, they are not the end all. Certainly neither is expert opinion. Stats- opinion -and common sense. Although it will never exist that is the best way to get to near balance.

You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way.


Foy Lyndstrom- "Villagers doing nothing don't do anything."
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