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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Brits on the bottom...again!
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Topic Subject:Brits on the bottom...again!
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kilmaim
Skirmisher
posted 02-07-08 08:47 PM EDT (US)         
So, I'm dying to hear from everyone? What's everyone's take on this? Everyone still for the OP Brits or what? Early game...sucks! Middle game...sucks! Late game...sucks!

It says it all...
http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,35707,0,365

[This message has been edited by kilmaim (edited 02-07-2008 @ 08:49 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
John GrahamLeigh
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 05:25 AM EDT (US)     26 / 67       
Kilmaim said:
MockHamill makes a very good point, however, the thing about the British that is SUPPOSED to make up for their lack of a Skirmisher unit is their Longbows! These guys need some sort of Boost! I do not know what it is, but they require something of a dire necessity. In Colonial, they can be a major force to be wreckoned with - I have been on the end of this from both sides of the fence - playing with mass longbows and playing against them. The problem is that they either come through or they don't - if your opponent successfully defends, you don't stand a chance! Bottom line...
Kilmaim, when I made a suggestion on this you wrecked the thread with a lot of juvenile silliness, causing me to abandon the forums for a fortnight... you seem a lot more sensible now!

My suggestion, which you derided, was to replace the anachronistic Yeomen card with a "95th Rifles" one, which would convert all longbowmen into skirmishers - just like the French "Tirailleurs" card. Possibly the British should no longer be able to train longbowmen after playing this card, gaining the ability to train skirmishers instead.
Ekanta
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 10:01 AM EDT (US)     27 / 67       
Brit dont need any skirms or CIR because they have uber muskets and uber hussars (and longbows).
Grottenmolch
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 01:35 PM EDT (US)     28 / 67       
Like Ekanta mentioned i also think that the brit dont need anything like a CIR upgrade.

For stopping an otto i would go mainly for musks first, as they help me repeling a jan rush when they slightly outnumber them and my TC and my outpost are aiding the same time (maybe with MM, it depends).
This way i have more wood for houses left, as they only cost gold and food (unlike the lbs).
If he goes for abus guns after that/later i would mix some hussars in (maybe sending the 700 gold card to to this) and some lbs.

Only for this purpose (against an otto) i tend to send the cherokee. They aid IMO very well in a crowd of musks against the jans (Sometimes i shift some vils to gold to send them as my 3rd or sometimes as my second card).

Meanwhile you can outboom him very well with creating some manors, but not to much. Here it is also hard to find the balance how spending the res right (houses or troops).
I send the 700 wood also but i build houses with them and a stable in this case.

Important is that you should be knowing if he is going to rush you or if he is going for fortress. If he does more hussars are vital against his falcs and abus guns (mikro!!).
But you have had more time for booming and you have more res than him for troops and houses he spend for advancing.
Exploring is vital.

If he goes for tps you should outboom him more while trying to get some of them down.

I have to admit that otto was and still is a tough one for brits, too.
Your eco have to survive and you have to use the res you have more than him right.

IMO the only change i would give the yeoman card is o have your lb upgraded to vet when the card arrives. But this is the only change i can imagine for the brits. Making a skirm of them with the yeoman card is a bit too heavy IMO.
I think that they are very good with just the range increased so they are very deadly when massed or for desensive purposes.

[This message has been edited by Grottenmolch (edited 02-09-2008 @ 01:35 PM).]

jayce
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 01:44 PM EDT (US)     29 / 67       
Brits aren't at the bottom. French are.
kilmaim
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 03:04 PM EDT (US)     30 / 67       
there is a couple of things that really disturbed me about your post kilmaim.
I'm of the notion that the 6 LB and Musk cards should be changed to 8.
This is way way over the top.
The Cherokee allies card really needs to be rethought. I think better would be 6 Highlanders.
This is even MORE out of the top specially if you expect it to stay at a 500 gold cost. 6 high landers in colonial for a shipment and 500 gold is just stupidly insane.

Things like this really make me think that your view on the weakness of brits is over-exaggerated.

It is my opinion that the only reason you think brits are so weak is because you lose games to players that are better than you, and you simply blame your civ.

I read most of what you beleive is wrong with the civ but most of it seem waaay to exaggerated and some stuff is common among many civs.
@Gomezd
8 is definitely not over the top, especially when you compare to other civs shipments. And I didn't mention anywhere the cost of a 6 Highlander shipment - it should be proportionate to the cost of their value. 500 gold for 8 cherokee's is way too much. 800 gold for the Higlanders should be sufficient - and at least you'd get a well rounded counter unit that's worth it's cost (don't try to read into things that aren't the case, merely to make yourself look good because you'll only turn out to be wrong...).
@kilmaim
Long post, but the only things you are describing are your problems with playing brit, that you dont have any clue how to play with them and that you dont have the idea how to use these hussars. Your only solution to this is calling for balance because your obvious solutions to do a ff, having a spammable unit or even to send highlanders failed.
Your only argument in the beginning were the stats from garlef and i already posted something to this.
...the statistics, the stats, the hard facts, the calculatable numbers, the body of evidence,..
LOL you havent mentioned nothing of these!
I think this: klick is also a reason why you are so on fire for balancing the brits and for wacko
@Grottenmolch
There's nothing wrong with the way I play the Brits (Example 1: http://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=1746 and Example 2: http://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=1747 Feel free to pick these apart...and of course, I too - like everyone - loose games, but whether win or loose, my micro speaks for itself, so this is defintly not my problem, nor is it that I do not know how to use them, as you suggest...so, once again, YOU ARE WRONG!). While everyone typically runs to the most OP civ in the game for each expansion and every patch release - especially to help boost their PR - I continue to play the Brits! Consistently and loyally...there are a few people (much higher raked than myself) who questioned my use of them from this forum...and ESO, due diligence has proved that I know how to use them effectively. People who thought I was once full of it, realized otherwise, and even though some of us still disagree, they know I know how to use them. Of course, I could be like the typical lamers and jump to the OP civ's to easily increase my win/loss percentage as you point out, but then again, I'm far from being like the rest of the "crowd".

As far as balancing the Brits, you might notice that it is not merely me who is calling for them to be balanced/boosted. Take a look around the forum... As far as Wacko goes, I've already said my peace. My play has nothing to do with nor does it correlate to my thoughts on Wacko - these are mutually exclusive "things". Do I think the Brits need to be balanced...well, I think we all know the answer to this. Do I think Wacko is doing a good job to achieve this - absolutely not! Last patch - Brits get an "indirect boost" IT DID NOTHING FOR THEM and whether due to Longbows or not...THEY REMAIN BROKE.
Kilmaim said:
MockHamill makes a very good point, however, the thing about the British that is SUPPOSED to make up for their lack of a Skirmisher unit is their Longbows! These guys need some sort of Boost! I do not know what it is, but they require something of a dire necessity. In Colonial, they can be a major force to be wreckoned with - I have been on the end of this from both sides of the fence - playing with mass longbows and playing against them. The problem is that they either come through or they don't - if your opponent successfully defends, you don't stand a chance! Bottom line...
Kilmaim, when I made a suggestion on this you wrecked the thread with a lot of juvenile silliness, causing me to abandon the forums for a fortnight... you seem a lot more sensible now!

My suggestion, which you derided, was to replace the anachronistic Yeomen card with a "95th Rifles" one, which would convert all longbowmen into skirmishers - just like the French "Tirailleurs" card. Possibly the British should no longer be able to train longbowmen after playing this card, gaining the ability to train skirmishers instead.
@John GrahamLeigh
You apprently have misread my thread. I do not agree with the Brits having a Skirmisher unit - none whatsoever. I do not like your idea and I do not agree with it. What I'm saying is that the Longbows themselves are (should be, are supposed to be, etc) what skirmishers are to other civs. ESO needs to figure out how to fix this problem and leave Longbows in the game - regardless of any such anachronism.
sneaky_squirrel
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 03:16 PM EDT (US)     31 / 67       
british only problem is colonial countering, though longbow spam takes care of that if opponenet doesn't use hussar or *shudders* Mass Cossaks which is what I use vs dutch and british, they get bows and skirms for soem reason, though soem are smart enough to add a mix which gets owned by my mass strelets.

The Gods have left us, therefore making the old world crumble and turn into ashes...

But as the gods return, from the ashes of the old world, shall rise a more beautiful and powerful new world, and life will begin once more, if they hadn't closed...dang you ES.
John GrahamLeigh
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 06:30 PM EDT (US)     32 / 67       
From Kilmaim:
I do not agree with the Brits having a Skirmisher unit - none whatsoever. I do not like your idea and I do not agree with it. What I'm saying is that the Longbows themselves are (should be, are supposed to be, etc) what skirmishers are to other civs. ESO needs to figure out how to fix this problem and leave Longbows in the game - regardless of any such anachronism.
Why on earth not? Other Europeans - French, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese - progress from crossbowmen to musket-armed skirmishers, so it would be entirely natural for the British to replace their longbows in the same way. It would give the British the mid-game boost you're apparently looking for.

The previous thread to which I referred was started by someone pointing out that longbowmen alongside 18th century troops looked wrong - a view with which I entirely agree. I think that my suggestion would help both balance and historicity.
Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 11:03 PM EDT (US)     33 / 67       
@Gomezd
8 is definitely not over the top, especially when you compare to other civs shipments. And I didn't mention anywhere the cost of a 6 Highlander shipment - it should be proportionate to the cost of their value. 500 gold for 8 cherokee's is way too much. 800 gold for the Higlanders should be sufficient - and at least you'd get a well rounded counter unit that's worth it's cost (don't try to read into things that aren't the case, merely to make yourself look good because you'll only turn out to be wrong...).
Dont worry, I have no fear of expressing my opinions for fear of being wrong, nor do I post to look good, I simply post in topics which interest me.

8 is most definitely over the top, both in terms of raw resources and compared to other civs shipments, just the food cost of 8 musketeers alone is wroth 600 food it is evident that this cards would be way too strong, and I really cant compare it to any other civs shipment as non I can think of come anywhere near close to this, perhaps only the 9Xbow + 2 Uhlan card but we all know Germany has to pay extra for those.

The highlander shipment is a ludicrous idea, its like proposing to have a 1 falc shipment in colonial, or a 3 mameluke card, or a 6 skirm card, these would all be stupidly powerfull. And I had to read into things which werent there seeing how you never mentioned what cost this highlanders were going to be I had to take an educated guess. And anyways 800 gold for 6 highlanders is more cost efficient than the 1000 gold for 9 in fortress. As a side note musketeers are and have always been a well rounded unit thats worth its cost.

You can see why such changes are much exaggerated and why when I read into them I think that you are far exaggerating british current situation and why I came to the conclusion that the problem could be with the player and not the civ.
@Grottenmolch
There's nothing wrong with the way I play the Brits (Example 1: http://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=1746and Example 2: http://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=1747Feel free to pick these apart...and of course, I too - like everyone - loose games, but whether win or loose, my micro speaks for itself, so this is defintly not my problem, nor is it that I do not know how to use them
I'll have a look at this when I get home, but keep in mind that if theres nothing wrong with the way you play brits then you should easily break into the top 50 british players - seeing how you would all be using the same civ.
L_Clan_Socrates
VIP
posted 02-10-08 00:24 AM EDT (US)     34 / 67       
http://www.elorating.com/portal/portal/default/Ladders/AOE3LadderPortletWindow?ladderType=1&action=2&game=3&countrycode=&clanabbrev=&ladderMo de=SP&civ=BR

There's a list of players showing that indeed Killmaim, you are not playing British correctly.

[img]http://www.aoe3-arena.com/sign2/WaCkO,3,0.png[/img]
Grottenmolch
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 06:13 AM EDT (US)     35 / 67       
I totally agree to Gomezd.

First if you are a good player (mikro, makro, playing civ right ect.), like you are saying, you would be far better then 1600 and PR 19! I think you are only claiming to be better!
And after playing so long and so well with them, the only limit is the balance?! LOL
IF you want to be better you dont have to change to the op civs or flame ES for balancing, you have to play better!

Second: You HAVE wrecked the thread where Graham posted about suggestions for a posiible longbow change! Your negation here is pretty awkward.
He dont have misread the the thread. You have posted there about McDonalds all the time!
Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 06:50 AM EDT (US)     36 / 67       
Brits are not the weakest civ, end of discussion.
Grottenmolch
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 08:45 AM EDT (US)     37 / 67       
^ agreed.
kilmaim
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 09:48 AM EDT (US)     38 / 67       
http://www.elorating.com/portal/portal/default/Ladders/AOE3LadderPortletWindow?la dderType=1&action=2&game=3&countrycode=&clanabbrev=&ladderMo de=SP&civ=BR

There's a list of players showing that indeed Killmaim, you are not playing British correctly.
The link opens the Top 25 players...what's your point - that I'm not in the Top 25? I already know this. I'm a 2nd Lt. and soon to be 1st. I haven't played a rated game in sometime and don't plan to do so until the next patch. So, if you're saying you need to be in the Top 25 players in the World to know how to play the Brits, then sounds like there's definitely a problem with the Brits. If only the Top 25 player know how to play them, and EVERYONE else int he entire world hasn't a clue, it really sounds like maybe ESO should think about removing them completely...
Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 10:14 AM EDT (US)     39 / 67       
Kill, you're not even 1600, so you don't know how to play Brits properly.

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 10:46 AM EDT (US)     40 / 67       
The link opens the Top 25 players...what's your point - that I'm not in the Top 25? I already know this. I'm a 2nd Lt. and soon to be 1st. I haven't played a rated game in sometime and don't plan to do so until the next patch. So, if you're saying you need to be in the Top 25 players in the World to know how to play the Brits, then sounds like there's definitely a problem with the Brits. If only the Top 25 player know how to play them, and EVERYONE else int he entire world hasn't a clue, it really sounds like maybe ESO should think about removing them completely...
The point he was trying to make is that there is more than 300 players better ranked than you, all british players, some of them players who to put it bluntly really are not good at the game, if they can achieve this rank with the british then the civ is not to blame, simple logic tells you that if you are playing british properly even if you arent some great player you should be much higher ranked than this players, because believe some of this players are no good.

maybe if you managed to get through the psychological barrier that you yourself have made about the british being so weak then maybe you will perform better the proof is there, over 300 players who are doing better than you with the british.
L_Clan_Socrates
VIP
posted 02-10-08 11:33 AM EDT (US)     41 / 67       
I was meaning to link you to the top 25 British players.

I personally play British as my main civ as well and do so with great results. I understand exactly what would happen if we were to give them unnecessary boosts. I'm confident that when the patch comes out British will be good enough for people who use them correctly. Simply put, they are more difficult to play than other civs.

[img]http://www.aoe3-arena.com/sign2/WaCkO,3,0.png[/img]
Elite_Niall
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 07:33 PM EDT (US)     42 / 67       
Simple solution to fix Britian, upgrade rockets and add a new Arsenal tech. That tech could either give longbows a speed boost, +1(or 2) area damage for longbows, or an attack boost.

I just tried giving them 2 splash area then fiddling with them in the editor, they do MUCH better against 50 halberder's, with about 10 of them surviving. However, this would need to be an age 4 tech/card since longbows slaughter skirmishers as it is.
CunniJA
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 08:42 PM EDT (US)     43 / 67       
Ha ha ha... that is an interesting idea, but how do you make that make sense?

A_S: "Cunni's pic wins thread otherwise failing due to being 5-7 years behind the times."
"Brilliant cunni simply brilliant"
C_MAG: "CunniJA's post is epic win."
kilmaim
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 09:20 PM EDT (US)     44 / 67       
Well...since there is a great number of excellent British players here who apparently know the ins-n-outs of them, surely you will provide those of us who have no idea what we're doing with them, a detailed explanation with some illusive insight that will allow us to better understand them and play them correctly.
Silophant
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 09:21 PM EDT (US)     45 / 67       
You know in Lord of the Rings, when Legolas occasionally fires two or three arrows at once? Like that, but more so.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 09:33 PM EDT (US)     46 / 67       
Haha longbows+chu = chows? New OP British unit xD

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
jayce
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 10:22 PM EDT (US)     47 / 67       
haha to the guy who thinks they should boost brits just cuz he can't play with them.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 11:56 PM EDT (US)     48 / 67       
Well...since there is a great number of excellent British players here who apparently know the ins-n-outs of them, surely you will provide those of us who have no idea what we're doing with them, a detailed explanation with some illusive insight that will allow us to better understand them and play them correctly.
what si better than watching NP's rec?
So, if you're saying you need to be in the Top 25 players in the World to know how to play the Brits, then sounds like there's definitely a problem with the Brits. If only the Top 25 player know how to play them, and EVERYONE else int he entire world hasn't a clue, it really sounds like maybe ESO should think about removing them completely...
without getting into the debate of whether british needs a boost or how much boost is appropriate. i think you have to get one thing right: there is nothing wrong with what Wacko said about british simply is harder to use.

after all, no one is forcing you to use british, you have the other 13 civs to play with. if you choose to play british, it would only mean you accept to use a difficult civ. and if you cant play it to the effectiveness demonstrated by top 25 british players, then what you should be doing is either practicing or changing civ. asking something that is designed this way to be redesigned just because you dont like it, isnt exactly a convincing argument.
Myll_Erik
Seraph Emeritus
posted 02-11-08 02:36 PM EDT (US)     49 / 67       
Brits are fine in 1v1 and team - though they are a bit defensive in 1v1's.

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LordPatrick18
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 03:20 PM EDT (US)     50 / 67       
I think British are hard to play in 1v1, and have problem civs, which is never a good thing. But I do not think they need any boosts yet.

In team on the other hand, you will find they are quite strong. This, IMO, shows the the problem is with the other civ, rather than Britain itself, as in team, the three "other civs" are not only up against Brits, but 2 others, who often can solve that problem.

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