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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Civilizations that You DO NOT Like
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Topic Subject:Civilizations that You DO NOT Like
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Timerover
Skirmisher
posted 05-06-09 10:46 AM EDT (US)         
We have had a thread on favorite civilizations, so I thought it would be interesting so see what civilizations people DO NOT like, and why. Here is one list for starters.

Aztecs: They had just about the bloodiest religion ever known, and fought wars simply to get human sacrifices. I cannot even conceive of playing them, even to playtest my naval changes.

Sioux: Lots of cavalry, and I am not that comfortable with cavalry in playing. I also would much rather have seen the Inca in the game, rather than the Sioux.

Ottomans: The automatic production of villagers drives me nuts, as I would much rather control what is produced and when.

Japan (honorable mention): I keep looking for the button to nuke myself.

India (honorable mention 2): I play them so I can used my modified Ironclad as their Portuguese ally. Seeing a guy on an elephant building a trading post or town center is just plain WEIRD. Besides that, I have studied the use of war elephants in history quite a bit, and while I view the how the Ensemble design staff worked War Elephants into the game as quite good and innovative, the historian part of me is screaming, NO WAY. War Elephants had a very strong tendency to be dangerous to both sides. Unfortunately, there is no provision for elephant panic in the game.

Nail to the mast her holy flag,
Set every threadbare sail,
And give her to the god of storms,
The lightning and the gale!
AuthorReplies:
Timerover
Skirmisher
posted 05-07-09 02:21 AM EDT (US)     26 / 71       
Hmm, I guess that I was unaware that the Mongolians were one of the civilizations in The Asian Dynasties expansion. They were in Age of Empires 2, and I never did play them there. You do have the Mongolia map, without the Mongols.

As for conquering Russia in a winter campaign, the Mongols were about the only Russian invader to come from a cold weather climate. Also, frozen rivers are a lot easier to cross for a cavalry army. They were extremely destructive, especially in Central Asia. However, for cold-blooded and deliberate nastiness, it is pretty hard to be the Assyrians at their peak. I find none of the three groups, Assyria, the Mongols, or the Aztecs, are ones that I am interested in playing.

As for the narrow minded comment, sobeit. I have the same objection to playing the Axis in the Axis and Allies board game, which I use in my historical gaming classes. My guess is that the Japanese killed somewhere on the order of 50 million or so Chinese during what was euphemistically called the China Incident. That is why when I play Japan, which I am not that enthused about doing, I keep looking for a button to nuke myself.

Nail to the mast her holy flag,
Set every threadbare sail,
And give her to the god of storms,
The lightning and the gale!

[This message has been edited by Timerover (edited 05-07-2009 @ 02:24 AM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-07-09 02:29 AM EDT (US)     27 / 71       
Yuan wasnt much of a civilisation of Mongolians, it was more like Mongolians following Chinese tradtion to establish a Dynasty.

As for their killings, no they were not merely collateral of war, they were systematic genocides. please read the link and all is explained.

they never helped to spread any cultures, many cultures and civilisation never recovered after being destroyed by Mongolians.

I find it hard to believe you would in fact think Hitler is worse because he killed innocent Jews while somehow over one hundred of million (literally that many, 60 million in china alone)victims the Mongolians massacred, raped and enslaved deserved their fate.

if you actually study the history of Mongolian Empire (plenty of information on Wikipedia alone), you would see that they had not done one single thing that was positive to its surrounding neighbors or the greater mankind. it is hard to believe that is even possible, but unfortunately it is true.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 05-07-2009 @ 02:32 AM).]

Ha_Luke
Sig Award Winner
posted 05-07-09 04:04 AM EDT (US)     28 / 71       
luke I am your father...*hiss*
Omg, why didn't you tell me?
I find it hard to believe you would in fact think Hitler is worse because he killed innocent Jews while somehow over one hundred of million (literally that many, 60 million in china alone)victims the Mongolians massacred, raped and enslaved deserved their fate.
The 60 million is the highest estimate: Wiki

There are some major differences between the deaths of the Mongolian and Hitler.

For the Mongolians it all had a goal, it made them better. They could expand, take valuable stuff and when they killed everyone they wouldn't have to worry about rebellion and it had a detterent effect.

Killing Jews didn't make Hitler or Germany better, it hadn't a goal. It was an ideology to wipe out the jews, which makes even more awful.

Furthermore, the killings of the Mongolians happened for more than 200 years, while Hitler did it in only 6.

The Mongolians did in it a way different time area where there was a lot more barbarism in the world, not only from them. They were probably the most brutal and cruel ones, but stuff like that happened a lot more.

The Second World War was in time area where everyone thought that we would finally be civilised and that we could solve conflicts by diplomacy. World War One was just finished and everyone was hoping that something like that would never happen again and only a few years later it happened again, but way worse.

"There must be some way out of here," said the joker to the thief
[TΣ]_Ha_Luke_331



"All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
-Voltaire
"A good decision is based on knowledge and not on numbers. " - Plato

[This message has been edited by Ha_Luke (edited 05-07-2009 @ 04:07 AM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-07-09 04:50 AM EDT (US)     29 / 71       
60 million was for china alone, i.e. not counting dozens other nation that were completely annihilated.
Before the Mongol invasion, Chinese dynasties reportedly had approximately 120 million inhabitants; after the conquest was completed in 1279, the 1300 census reported roughly 60 million people.
also Mongolian conquest did not take 200 years, it was done within 80 years,



as for the modern day argument.. I cant agree, Mankind has always been and will always be savage, around the time of Holocaust, Japanese were also massacring Chinese in China, over 17 million Chinese civilians died, Nanjing city alone lost 300,000 people in matter of a few weeks. Even in late in 20th century, we still have countries like Rwanda that would have a civil war that result in 1 million people, or 20% of total population killed inside 100 days. Can these 20% of total population all be soldiers that died in battlefield?

I can not agree with the "cause" argument either, it doesnt matter whether mass murder were in the name of driving terror (Mongolians) or hate (Nazis), they are all equally bad, you can not say killing for terrorism is somehow better than killing for hate. only difference is Mongolians killed far more, in the days where the world had far less total population, and that is what makes them worse.

in fact i think 100 million in 1200s was probably 1/5 of worlds total population, because in 1700 worlds total population was about 790 million

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 05-07-2009 @ 04:55 AM).]

Ha_Luke
Sig Award Winner
posted 05-07-09 05:46 AM EDT (US)     30 / 71       
Seeing this wikisite: Clicky and it's sources Source, it's hard to tell how many have died. The estimated of 60 million Chinese deaths is there, but also
# Colin McEvedy, Atlas of World Population History (1978):

* China Proper: In the text, he states that the population declined by 35 million as the Mongols reduced the country to subjugation during the 13th Century. In the Chart, the population drops from 115M to 85M between 1200 and 1300 CE.
* Iran: Charted population declined from 5.0M to 3.5M
* Afghanistan: from 2.50M to 1.75M
* Russia-in-Europe: 7.5M to 7M
* This indicates a total population decline of some 37.75 million.
I can not agree with the "cause" argument either, it doesnt matter whether mass murder were in the name of driving terror (Mongolians) or hate (Nazis), they are all equally bad, you can not say killing for terrorism is somehow better than killing for hate.
It's not about "cause", because it's not something that just happened, it's about the goal. The Mongolians actually had to gain something by being that brutal. In history there has always been killing, conquering, pillaging etc, for power and money. It's not good (far from it), but at least the people who did it could gain something from it.

By killing Jews as an Industrial process the Germans didn't gain anything. It's a like psychopath who kills innocent people, no real goal, nothing to gain, it's just crazy. That's why people are shocked, it's madness what Hitler did.
as for the modern day argument.. I cant agree, Mankind has always been and will always be savage,
True, but there's clear difference between the modern age and the middle ages. The attitude in the western world had severely changed, especially after World War I. In Europe there had always been war, fighting, conquering and pillaging, but in the 20th century humanity had become much more important. They thought we didn't need war to solve problems, that's why the League of Nations was established. And therefore was everyone so shocked that even in civilised societies something like World War II could happen (and that's why it's such a shame for the western world what happened in Rwanda).

"There must be some way out of here," said the joker to the thief
[TΣ]_Ha_Luke_331



"All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
-Voltaire
"A good decision is based on knowledge and not on numbers. " - Plato

[This message has been edited by Ha_Luke (edited 05-07-2009 @ 05:51 AM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-07-09 06:03 AM EDT (US)     31 / 71       
115 million is more or less close enough, 85 million was probably halfway during the population decline, as it reached 60 million at its lowest in late 1300 at the point where Mongolians were driven out.

that quote also only included only 4 other nations, when in fact many more existed before the Mongolian expansion, many extincted completely..

I cant call Holocaust "nothing to gain", it was hate.

Mongolian killings were very different to most other killings in war, they killed off every living soul to drive fear into potential future opponents. its degree of savageness can not be compared to any other invasions, so I can not just dismiss them as "just another war in history".
Emperor_Kyle
Skirmisher
posted 05-07-09 07:11 AM EDT (US)     32 / 71       
If Mongolia was in this game, I would Mong-gasm. I loved them in AOK.

ESO2: Kyle_The_Brave
Clan: Proud Officer of Trỉρℓε ΣņτễηţϠ, [TΣ]

"Why make your own inspirational quotes when you can just read the side of O_Man's Ssips juices?" - A wise prophet
"The best way to die is to spontaneously combust during a drum solo battle with Lars Ulrich" - The Blair
As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 05-07-09 09:20 AM EDT (US)     33 / 71       
Remember that there was a huge financial motive for the Holocaust.

In AOK the Mongols never really struck me as very awesome. I preferred the Huns for a lot of the same reasons as I use the Sioux today. The mangudai as a special unit just didn't pack the same punch as some of the others.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
Emperor_Kyle
Skirmisher
posted 05-07-09 03:21 PM EDT (US)     34 / 71       
True, tarkans were pretty awesome.

ESO2: Kyle_The_Brave
Clan: Proud Officer of Trỉρℓε ΣņτễηţϠ, [TΣ]

"Why make your own inspirational quotes when you can just read the side of O_Man's Ssips juices?" - A wise prophet
"The best way to die is to spontaneously combust during a drum solo battle with Lars Ulrich" - The Blair
buggy123
Skirmisher
posted 05-07-09 06:42 PM EDT (US)     35 / 71       
I'm so lost in this AOK conversation lol
Timerover
Skirmisher
posted 05-07-09 08:56 PM EDT (US)     36 / 71       
Echoing Buggy123, could we perhaps stop discussing civilizations like the Mongols that are NOT in Age of Empires 3 and its various expansions?

Nail to the mast her holy flag,
Set every threadbare sail,
And give her to the god of storms,
The lightning and the gale!
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-07-09 10:32 PM EDT (US)     37 / 71       
Timerover, but you did not say it had to be an civlisation in aoe3

I have to bash Mongolians because I dont have any problem with civs in aoe3, over patches some of them become very depressing to play with, such as sioux when they have 18 range wakina cost 60 food and 40 gold, but overall they all have their fun.
Sad_But_True
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-09 00:15 AM EDT (US)     38 / 71       
I hate playing the Sioux because I can never guess their strat right. I hardly play versus them and they scare me. Is he going to SEAR me, or is he going to FF and spam wakinas?
jonesk
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-09 00:57 AM EDT (US)     39 / 71       
Germany, the free Uhlans are so annoying.

some noob: Still - You need to use correct punctuation and grammar if it's going to be excepted.
Simia
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-09 01:54 AM EDT (US)     40 / 71       
The Aztecs operated on a different order of magnitude from the rest of the civilizations mentioned.
Timerover, the extent of human sacrifice in Aztec society was pretty explainable. Before any Europeans set foot on the mainland, disease from the Spaniards in the Caribbean had already reached Mexico and devastated nearly 90% of the population there within 5 years. I'm sure if some kind of a massive extinction occurred within that time period here in the US, we might also resort to human sacrifice and then be easily overrun by a couple hundred drunken Spaniards with rusty swords.

Rushing With France
the french ar general an bad civ. bcause they know what the enemy can do!
as an french u must luck that u have more crossbows then pikes. pikes ar only for buildings or cav. the deck should have in 3 hussars. thats the way to winning! a nother good card is 700 wood and 700 food. have fun by capture the enemy -Loessli
CrazyLunatic
Veteran Musketeer
posted 05-08-09 02:43 AM EDT (US)     41 / 71       
Timerover, the extent of human sacrifice in Aztec society was pretty explainable. Before any Europeans set foot on the mainland, disease from the Spaniards in the Caribbean had already reached Mexico and devastated nearly 90% of the population there within 5 years. I'm sure if some kind of a massive extinction occurred within that time period here in the US, we might also resort to human sacrifice and then be easily overrun by a couple hundred drunken Spaniards with rusty swords.
i'm pretty sure they did sacrifice before the Europeans found the Americas.

QUACK
Incognoto
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-09 03:39 AM EDT (US)     42 / 71       
I dislike the topic starter tbh.
ImperialLobster
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-09 05:05 AM EDT (US)     43 / 71       
i cant believe some people actually play aoe3 wihout doing their duty by playing the first ones.
huns replaced romans, germans replaced huns, muslims replaced germans.
oops- that was not politically correct... oh well, i dont care!

KEEP
CALM
AND
CARRY
ON
≤≤≤≤≤See my YouTube channel for some crazy pointless crap!≥≥≥≥≥
As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 05-08-09 09:28 AM EDT (US)     44 / 71       
I used to be like that about playing Axis too, but got over it when I got into high school and took German, Japanese, and Latin (our closest offering to Italian). I figured, "why not eat the Devil an ye drink his Broth" right? I found the moral and ethical objection to a GAME spurious. One can role-play without emulating atrocity.

Besides, when I am tempted to ruminate on what their ancestors did to my ancestors in Warsaw, Riga, and Lvov, I recall what my husband's ancestors did to their ancestors. (He is Persian/Turkish/Swede. Think Vikings, Varangians, and Vienna.) And I think about my Chinese colleague at work and think of all the jams she has helped me out of, and then reflect that some of her ancestors raped and pillaged and slew some of my husband's ancestors at Samarqand and Tabriz. My husband's best friend and one who has been active in game design - his ancestors tormented and raped the ancestors of my sophomore English professor. Her ancestors raped and slaughtered the ancestors of my former landlady in the Sioux Uprisings of the 1850's. Her distant ancestors ambushed and slew Romans and British garrisons on the Antonine Wall and pushed back the frontiers of the Empire all the way to the Humber.

If you spend too much time thinking about it, everybody by reason, should be taking blood revenge on everyone else they know. The very best lesson to learn is that we must work to identify the causes of such hatreds and actions, and prevent them as a species. Together. Overcrowding, ignorance, greed, fanaticism.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.

[This message has been edited by As_Saffah (edited 05-08-2009 @ 09:36 AM).]

buggy123
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-09 07:06 PM EDT (US)     45 / 71       
Applause! I totally agree with you Saffah

btw, you have husband but lives with a room mate? sry if it's kinda personal question. Don't have to answer if you don't want to

[This message has been edited by buggy123 (edited 05-08-2009 @ 07:07 PM).]

Timerover
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-09 09:12 PM EDT (US)     46 / 71       
As_Saffah, I will happily remain a narrow-minded fanatic then, and do my best to bore you to death on the forum.

Nail to the mast her holy flag,
Set every threadbare sail,
And give her to the god of storms,
The lightning and the gale!
As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 05-08-09 09:15 PM EDT (US)     47 / 71       
we cannot afford to live in downtown Toronto unless we take a house-mate. He is very discreet and stays mostly to himself.

S'ok, I still wub you *huggles Timey*

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
retribution1423
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-09 11:13 PM EDT (US)     48 / 71       
the irish

Mudkips did 9/11 - The way I see it is, I'm playing this game for the fun of it, not to prove that I have a fiery E-wang of doom.
Timerover
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-09 11:42 PM EDT (US)     49 / 71       
I dislike the topic starter tbh.
There are a large number of people who would have intensely disliked me in Iraq in 1991, and Afghanistan in 2001-3 if they had known of my existence. There were also a large number of US Air Force officers that really, really disliked me in 2001-2002. I am certain that there are others that I am missing in the list, not including students who did not receive the grade or evaluation they were expecting.

Nail to the mast her holy flag,
Set every threadbare sail,
And give her to the god of storms,
The lightning and the gale!
Cholesterol
Skirmisher
posted 05-09-09 00:05 AM EDT (US)     50 / 71       
lol you guys are awesome, i shouldnt sign up for a world history class, i can get all my credits reading this XD.

@lobester: what the hell..germans to muslim..thats the most racist/incorrect piece of information i have read through this whole post. If you were trying to funny, you werent.

the civs i dont like:

1- spain, just never got the hang of them

2- Iriqous: idk, you just dont get that..that feeling when you play with them. Unless your winning lol

3- Japan, we have no FP on macs so it sucks, none of the good players play with the japs anymore, but we get noobs who play with them, have no idea what their doing, accidentaly spam 100 ashis and win it! not fair lol
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