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Topic Subject: The Bank Spank
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posted 03-09-06 02:51 AM EDT (US)   
New version: Bank Spank 2.0

Dutch have a hard time these days with FF being the norm. It seems impossible to compete. Despair no more, Dutch's answer to the FF is in this very post. If you want to actually look forward to playing your next Spanish opponent, read on.

Summary: This is a FF-turtle with skirms, banks, booming, and a 150 pop military. In other words, it has ALL THE GOODS!

It's strengths:
* Kick-ass economy
* Good colonial defense
* A fast Age III time
* Good use of banks
* Beats any attack before 10 min (with proper scouting of course)

It's weaknesses:
* Britain (they will out-boom you every time)
* Grenadiers


Cards needed:
3 vils
Colonial Militia
1000G
9 skirms
4 towers
1000W
Religous Freedom


Very Helpful Cards:
1000F
10 Ruyters
9 Halbs
Mercenaries
-40% inf/cav train time
Advanced Arsenal


******** THE STRAT *********

Age I:
* Build 10 vils from the TC
First 4 vils go to wood for a wall. As this wood comes in, build a wall around your entire base.
* Play 3 vil card
20 vils total. Yes that does work, read on.

Age II 5:50 -- 200G + 1 Tower
During age-up, put 11 vils on food, 9 on gold.
At this point you will know whether they are rushing. If and only if they are, send Colonial Militia and keep 400f/400g handy for the minutemen.
* Get the tower up
* Build a house
* Collect the 2 gold crates
You should end up with just enough food/gold by 6:50. Don't get any more food than you need.

Age III 7:20 -- Exiled Prince
During age-up, put 15 vils on wood, 5 vils on gold
* Play 1000 gold card
* Play 9 skirm card
* Build a house
* Build an artillery range and train 2 culverins
* Play 4 Towers

By 9:45 you will have:
* walls surrounding your base
* 9 skirms
* 2 culverins
* ~25 vils

This is where things start getting fun. If he attacks, rejoice. You have the ideal defenses and will wipe out anything, yes ANYTHING he could possibly throw at you this early. If he booms instead, don't worry, you're about to build 6 banks.

Bank Spank
Move vils so you have 15 on food 10 on wood.
* Play 1000W card
* Build 4 banks
* Build a church
* Play Religious Freedom card
* Reserach Coffee Trade
* Use the market to buy wood if you are low. It's worth it, since you will get your banks up sooner.
* Build 2 banks
* Build a market and research gang saws + great coat.
* The rest is up to you! Just know that you're gonna need 15 houses within 5 min because that's how fast the resources are going to come in.


******** NOTES *********

6 banks?!?!
Ideally, you will be left alone and will have nothing to make but those 6 banks. However, if it looks as though your opponent is ramping up for an attack soon, you will have to hold off on the banks, build a barraks instead and make more skirms/culvs. This is something you have to watch for yourself and judge accurately. If you make too many banks, you could end up with a gaping hole in your wall. If you make too much military, it's very easy for the opponent to out-boom you.

In my experience, about half of my opponents see the skirms and culverins, and assume that there will be even more skirms/culverins when they come back. This "implied army" is what will allow you boom.

If you're up against a boom civ (Ports, French, Dutch), you can be almost certain that they will boom vs your turtle, so you must make those banks your top priority. This is especially true of Ports, who won't have good age-III seige. You can match the port boom only if you get those banks up asap, so it's a matter of win/lose there. Ideally you will have all 6 banks up by 15 min.

Once your banks are up, you have created a monsterous eco and can spam any unit you want. Your goal then is to get to 200 pop. That's not to say you shouldn't attack before then, since some situations will call for that. I like to make culv/falc/skirm/pike. Some prefer Ruyter/Falc. Do whatever suits you and best counters the enemy. Once you have an army that you think will beat theirs, move on out!

About the wall:
When constructing your wall, keep in mind 3 things: food, wood, and space. Don't worry about gold. Your first gold mine is 2000g, which is enough to get you to fortress. The 1000g card will get you culvs and 2 vils. The banks will take it from there.
Food: Try to get 2 herds into your walls. Look for sheep/lamas/cows. You need at least 2500F within your walls by the time they are up. Berries are 1000F each so if you have 3 of those, you're fine.
Wood: If you can't enclose a bunch of trees with your walls, that's ok. You can build the walls so that trees are just outside your base and your vils are only a few steps from safety.
Space: If you make the wall too big, you will have too much area to defend. If it's too small, you will be forced to build outside of it. There are some buildings that can go outside the wall safely. These are banks, the market, and the church (who attacks a church?). Everything else should go inside, so make sure you have room.

Misc notes:
Shipped towers give you 35 XP each when built.
6 banks are 840 XP.
A smart opponent will always attack your weakest side, so careful with those towers.
Your opponent will out-boom you if you let him take the water, so after banks are up make this your next economic priority. The 3 fluyt card helps.
Raiding is always a good thing. Don't let the above build order prevent you from a timely vil massacre.

Acknowledgments: ultimitsu contributed 2 great ideas to this strat. Tons of others here have shared much wisdom that has helped me.

Quotes:
"I've never seen that before!" ~ treebeardIII
"You did me a surprise." ~ a 2k player
"It'd hurt pretty bad to get spanked by a bank" ~EmpireDoja

Screenshot

Recorded Game


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.

[This message has been edited by jaafit (edited 05-11-2006 @ 03:39 AM).]

Replies:
posted 03-15-06 07:43 PM EDT (US)     51 / 85  

Quote:

Anyway your changing the strategy jaffit, according to the guy your'll be getting 2 culvs, also keep in mind that if he doesn't mkae culvs I can ship 2 falconets


Umm, I have no idea what you just said.

But I can say that although your claimed 8:30 army sounds daunting, I don't think I'll be facing that at my skill level. The average Spanish army is lancers/pikes/falcs (no skirms) and this strat handles any distribution of those units.

The things that have beaten it have been:
1. Me screwing something up (easy to do).
2. Great Plains (it's impossible to turtle on that map!)

Let me elaborate on #1 a bit. There are countless ways to screw up this strat. Most of them all stem from not scouting and planning accordingly. I've been late-age-II rushed and beaten because I didn't have enough gold for the 16 MM. I've been invaded by an early-age-II rush because I didn't have the wall up by 5 min. I've had the walls come down to a mass of infantry because I forgot to make a house in II and couldn't ship skirms. The list goes on and on. What encourages me though, is that every time I've lost with this strat I know why. Not only do I know why, I know that if I hadn't screwed up I would have had a good chance of winning.

That's all a good strat can do for you really. It can't guarantee you'll win (unless you're Spanish); it can only give you a fair opportunity.


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.
posted 03-15-06 10:04 PM EDT (US)     52 / 85  
But you will be facing it at your skill level soon enough, strats tend to start at higher levels then slowly lower levels adapt them, then once the lower levels get a strat the experts aready have new ones.

Also, heres my idea for countering my army:

-7:00 reach t3, dutch have 7 ruyter up, right? If not then use exiled prince.
Ship 10 ruyters upon reaching t3 (maybe 9 skirms if you used my 7 ruyter up option that I think they have for some reason)
Make banks/falconet
Ship resources to make more banks
This shoudl be something like 17 ruyters and 2 falconets by 8:30-9:00 me thiks, if I'm wrong correct me, but I think this may work better than the original strategy posted.

Anyway I only have a level 8 dutch out of 800 games played, so as you can tell I dont really know them from a playing standpoint, but I definetly know how to counter them, and I know whether a dutch strat is easily counterable or very hard.


"Dutch are OP!"
"Iriquois are OP!"
"Stophon is OP!"

tEk Clan #1 US Clan
posted 03-15-06 11:09 PM EDT (US)     53 / 85  
Well i have lvl 40ish dutch and i dont get a 7 ruyter option on aging. Maybe higher level hcs do.
Dutch option on aging t3 isnt hot as ulitmitsu said. I usually go EP to ship the 10 ruyters or 9 skirms and make a culverin or two a little quicker. The halbs just never seem to be worth it.

I dont think jaafit is saying that with this strat all of a sudden dutch is as good a civ as spanish lol. Spanish is certainly alot easier to play and maybe the best post 1.05. I think this strat will work against all but the fastest spanish ff/rushes when done right.

posted 03-15-06 11:32 PM EDT (US)     54 / 85  

Quote:

Dutch option on aging t3 isnt hot as ulitmitsu said.

?? when did i say dutch aging options were hot?

posted 03-16-06 08:26 AM EDT (US)     55 / 85  
Mmmn I can't create a dutch strat, but nonetheless, the original one is not a good one, but some of the improvises posted might make it viable.

"Dutch are OP!"
"Iriquois are OP!"
"Stophon is OP!"

tEk Clan #1 US Clan
posted 03-16-06 06:40 PM EDT (US)     56 / 85  
ultimitsu,

***dutch dont get good age3 bonus like 7 skirms, thats why most dutch player go with exile prince, i myself would go with 6 halbs, but others choose not to because they rather have culverin 1 minute faster.***

Is what you said in a post near the bottom of the previous page. I translated "dont get good" to "not hot". Anyway, obviously i agree. many games i stressed over wether to get the free halbs or go EP. Now, the only time i think about the halbs is when i know im facing alot of cav quick. Even then its debatable wether going EP and sending the 10 ruyters is still the best choice.

Edit: actually i think you misunderstood what i wrote and i misunderstood your reply lol. my statement was in effect agreeing with your comment quoted above but could have been said clearer.

[This message has been edited by Osheal (edited 03-16-2006 @ 06:43 PM).]

posted 03-16-06 07:17 PM EDT (US)     57 / 85  
LOL, i see what you mean.. the way you wrote was interpertable both ways..
posted 03-16-06 09:48 PM EDT (US)     58 / 85  
wow...long discussion. Anyways, it's great to see someone make such a detailed strat, so kudos to u, jaafit. It's worthy of Ceres himself. Wether it will work or not...I don't know, but just finally wanted to put in something off topic. Adios.

Stephen Harper's theme song is Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto!
posted 03-17-06 12:07 PM EDT (US)     59 / 85  
Ok where to start as I apologise for ripping this to shreds. Anyone that knows me knows I played Dutch and tried my best to compete at a high skill level, so I'm the first to hope this would shed new light on the civ. However, Stophon is completely right. Whether or not its with Spanish he attacks or not, as soon as you start chopping wood to make your precious walls GG right there.

You mention good scouting, which we will assume the other player will also be doing as strategies are made to use the game to its full potential, you say yourself:

Quote:

This is where things start getting fun. If he attacks, rejoice. You have the ideal defenses and will wipe out anything, yes ANYTHING he could possibly throw at you this early. If he booms instead, don't worry, you're about to build 6 banks.

For one lets make it clear you said it is for countering FF. Fair enough but still Spanish/German rush will annihilate this but anyway thats not what you wanted. So that makes the strategy even more risky as once you start chopping wood at the start if your slow to advance and he rushes it's GG whether you have scouted well or not.

Ok so lets say all goes well you lay the table, knives and forks for the tea party, building your wall round your base. If the enemy is a good opponent, right about now they will start laughing as soon as they have scouted this. Both of you will proceed to Fortress like planned. The guy you played isn't worthy of 1950 in fact he sucked made crappy card choices and a bad decision to attack. At 15+ minutes into the game you still have 9 Skirmisher's + 2 Culverins, while making your banks which also take 4.5 minutes each (some longer with cards used whatever) until you start making profitable units.

All the while you have lost map control they boom to their hearts contempt, 3tcs or fast age4 by 10-11 minutes two factories heavy cannons, maybe a merc army. Take the whole map and sit there as you will be in no position to kill him anytime soon. The only way you can win is if they attack you, which is still not possible until your economy starts booming at 18 minutes or more. The game will be already over against a good player whether they are attacking you or not.

Still they don't even need to boom just keep you off the map until they feel they can kill you. The amount of falconets and culverins the German player could of had by 18 minutes is unthinkable.

Weaknesses: Everything. Sorry mate as I too am very disappointed with the way things have gone for the Dutch.

BTW I as many other players will be happy to show you why this is completely useless.

posted 03-17-06 01:32 PM EDT (US)     60 / 85  

Quote:

At 15+ minutes into the game you still have 9 Skirmisher's + 2 Culverins


Did you read the notes, or did you just see "walls by 5 min" and start typing your reply? Go back and read the NOTES section, especially the part that starts "if it looks as though your opponent is ramping up for an attack soon."

Quote:

All the while you have lost map control they boom to their hearts contempt, 3tcs or fast age4 by 10-11 minutes two factories heavy cannons, maybe a merc army. Take the whole map and sit there as you will be in no position to kill him anytime soon.


This is a valid concern, and it's easy to think that map control + freedom to boom = win. However, when you can build banks, you don't need map control; the opponent's map control is therefore to their disadvantage! They have to build 2 TCs, a couple outposts and a fort, while you just make banks. Assuming they do all 3, that's roughly 1700w plus a shipment, none of which will give them any resources back.

As for the 11 min industrial, this is possible but very unlikely, as most opponents have plans for their resources up til the 10 min mark. Besides, if they FI, they have sacrificed boom time and will have about 40 vils by the time you have 55.

Quote:

The only way you can win is if they attack you, which is still not possible until your economy starts booming at 18 minutes or more.


It's not possible for them to attack me? Or it's not possible to win when it's the only way I can win? Despite not being able to understand this sentence, I will say that yes, it is ideal that they attack you at 9-10 min. And yes, you will win. That's what the strat is for, to counter the FF attempt to siege your base at 9-10 min. If they decide not to seige and boom instead, they are going to have a tough time out-booming 6 banks by 15 min. If they decide to ramp up and attack instead, again see NOTES.

I'm tempted to upload the rec of me vs the 2k player. The thing is, I lost that game, so Rarecut and Stophon are going to say "see this strat doesn't work" and point to the rec as proof. But it shows you what I mean by preparing for a late-fortress attack. I built more walls, more skirms, more towers, more culverins, and was able to fend off 4 waves of attacks, all while building my banks. I then came out of my base at full military pop and took out his fort, a TC, mills, rax, stable, houses, and vils. Is anyone interested in seeing this?

--edit: now that i watched it again, I see that some of the above is exaggerated The rec still proves my point though.


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.

[This message has been edited by jaafit (edited 03-18-2006 @ 02:43 AM).]

posted 03-17-06 02:37 PM EDT (US)     61 / 85  
Yes let me see it and lets play a game. I won't just say omg it doesn't work let me show you.
posted 03-17-06 03:37 PM EDT (US)     62 / 85  
I love this strat, I have decided to play dutch now because of this, since my old strat was decent but did very bad against FF,and this is sorta FF which is the most effective strat at the moment and do ok against everything else except maybe otto rush, and I love to turtle. This strat isnt the most powerful ever or OP but it requires a lot of skill and it is decent, u just need to be good enuf to pull it off and win with it

a little question, which mercenaries will u use? cuz u recomended those but im not sure which are really worthy

[This message has been edited by Zhadow (edited 03-17-2006 @ 03:44 PM).]

posted 03-17-06 04:08 PM EDT (US)     63 / 85  
It's not exactly skillful I watched the replay he just walls himself in. Then places buildings for the next ten minutes. Please I want to see this proper 2k replay.

That sentence makes complete sense. The only way you can win is if he attacks you. Though you need till the 18th minute mark to have a decent enough economy just to start producing an army. That guy made so many mistakes like getting stronger mercenaries card first when he only got one set. He didn't even get 3 tcs when he could of.

Just watched the the other replay against the Port. There is no way you can get away with it, any good player will be in age 4 with mortars and a full pop army.

[This message has been edited by RarecuT (edited 03-17-2006 @ 04:29 PM).]

posted 03-17-06 04:36 PM EDT (US)     64 / 85  
RarecuT: are you still using dutch (ur highrated)? I read your pre 1.05 patch guide, are u still colonial harassing with skirms or still using ATP at all??

Because thats something i've never done (ATP) and i dunno if dutch has any potential anymore, maybe on water maps...

Edit: I noticed you have left dutch for german now, so I guess my questions are all answered then lol :P Laterz

[This message has been edited by TSC_Revenger (edited 03-17-2006 @ 04:49 PM).]

posted 03-17-06 11:49 PM EDT (US)     65 / 85  
Ok, here's the one I played vs the 2k player. It shows that you can build more military instead of banks and be able to fend off a late-fortress attack. In this case, that attack came at 15 min. My biggest problem was having too many unspent resources when it was time to counter-attack. If I had been able to build more houses and hit max-pop for my counter-attack, I'm sure I would have won.

http://h1.ripway.com/jaafit/AOE/BankSpank/BankSpankvsMercArmy.age3rec


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.
posted 03-18-06 01:00 AM EDT (US)     66 / 85  
Hi out there!

I'm very new hear, so i just want to hear what you mean when you are saying FF, FI and rush strats? i also dont know what it would say if you are turtling and what is a boom? for an example some of you says "and when you are booming...".

posted 03-18-06 02:19 AM EDT (US)     67 / 85  
FF=Fast Fortress, concentrate resources on getting to fortress quick for superior units and shipments.
FI=Fast Industrial, same thing.
A rush is concentrating resources into military early and hitting an opponent (hopefully) before they're ready.
A boom is concentrating resources into economy. "Booming" means making as many villagers as possible, getting economic upgrades, etc.
A turtle is concentrating resources into defense. Basically build early defensive structures and units, anticipating an attack.

Rush beats Boom which beats Turtle which beats Rush.

However in AOE3 FF beats everything except a well excecuted strong rush.


|Ca_aok|HG Seraph wannabe|
|{ca_aok@hotmail.com}|
|{ESO2: [EEX] ca_aok}|
O-- Member of EEX, and former member of LKS --O
In the Darkness, there is Light, in the Old, there is New.
From the Void a New Star rises, Shining down for Me and You.
posted 03-18-06 10:24 AM EDT (US)     68 / 85  
all right.
thanks you very much
I just wanted to know
posted 03-18-06 06:11 PM EDT (US)     69 / 85  
1v1 gogo let me rape this already. He declines to play me.^^ GG

[This message has been edited by RarecuT (edited 03-18-2006 @ 10:10 PM).]

posted 03-18-06 11:24 PM EDT (US)     70 / 85  
I think this is a great strategy. Does it allow dutch to be able to win vs the top 3 civs every time; no. But it does allow them to be competitive with them, and really I think that is the best strategy one can expect in dutch's current state.
posted 03-19-06 09:24 AM EDT (US)     71 / 85  
Dutch dont really have any option atm...vs a rush ur dead, vs a boom ur dead, vs 2.1k+ ur soooo dead...

I've left my lvl 77 Dutch hc for Port now, and god are they easy to play...Map control OWNS everything, thats y dutch and turtle will always be sucky, sorry but its true...

posted 03-19-06 01:26 PM EDT (US)     72 / 85  
I have to try this
I've been having such a hard time lately using the Dutch.

posted 05-09-06 02:09 PM EDT (US)     73 / 85  
This strat sucks. I mean it does work and it is competitive vs some opponents, but building that wall is sooo frustrating and having to build inside it is a pain. Plus you get out-boomed half the time so your first attack has to work or it was game over. Enough of that.

I've made some major improvements to the strat. In fact, I don't know if I can even call it the same name it's so different. The basic idea is still there: turtle and get 6 banks ASAP. The similarities pretty much end right there.

Improvements:
* No more walls!
* A raid @ 3:00
* Faster age-II and age-III times
* More flexibility to fend off a rush
* Adequate defenses by 8:00 instead of 9:45
* Better defenses overall
* Much better eco
* Faster shipments
* 6 banks by 12:30 instead of 15:00

It's been tested and works very well vs oppoents at my level (1925). I'll be sharing it after I get some more recordings and pick out a good name


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.
posted 05-09-06 03:19 PM EDT (US)     74 / 85  
@jaafit - hey, I've been following this thread but have never tried you original strategy. Quite frankly the times seemed off, I did not find the defenses to be sufficient for competitive play, complete loss of map control was a big problem, and walling in was just not an option on some maps or a bad option in general. Lately I have been playing the Dutch and to my great dissapointment I have dropped about 90 pts on cuetech because of it (from around 1850 to 1760). I have tried every strategy I could think of with them, and the only one that I found remotely works still is a ff strat that I do with 3 banks or 2 banks and a rax. That gave me some decent defense and a relatively strong econ at around 7:30 (fortress time) =) However, this strat was often not sufficient and as with most other strats that Dutch have it turns more into delaying your loss rather than eventual upper hand leading to a win. That leads me into your new strat (keep in mind that I am only making deductions here and will dissect the points that I could somewhat relate to)...

Improvements:
* No more walls! <-- good, I think that Dutch don't need walls really, maybe if you want to funnel enemy army to attack from a certain side or something...
* A raid @ 3:00 <-- a raid at 3 mins! I have to be honest, I am doubting that. With 10 villies going up to colonial you are not going to hit the advance button any sooner than 1:30/45 which means that you cannot be in colonial any faster than 3:00 which also means that any shipment or unit production cannot be done before 3:30-40...what do you raid with (scouts and explorer, j/k =D)?
* Faster age-II and age-III times <-- fastest colonial with only 10 villies will be between 3:00 and 3:30 and fastest fortress time with Dutch will be somewhere around 6 mins, and that will give you some shitty econ so I don't think it is viable and also you will long have died to an otto rush with jannie/abus combo...
* More flexibility to fend off a rush <-- this I can see since I can build a 10 pike + 10 skirms force by about 5-something mins...
* Adequate defenses by 8:00 instead of 9:45 <-- this is hard to call and I am not sure what you consider 'adequate' defenses...many civs will attack with many different combos so I will not comment on this one...one thing I found tho is that having a fort helps hell-of-a-lot to build 'adequate' defenses accross the board
* Better defenses overall <-- no comment as no details
* Much better eco <-- considering your suggested colonial and fortress times I can contest this right away. If you think that banks will solemnly compensate for lack of villagers I can tell you that they won't...
* Faster shipments <-- I'm guessing this involves 1 or more TP being built. You are short on wood as-is with Dutch to be building more than one TP...
* 6 banks by 12:30 instead of 15:00 <-- that is 2100 food and 2100 wood in banks which roughly = 1000f + 700f + 600f ship AND 1000w + 700w + 600w ship!?

I am waiting to see what kind of strategy you post since I would love to find a trully competitive strategy for Dutch (at least at the 1850-1950 level). I think that Dutch have a lot of potential but the are hugely UP now which is very crappy =|


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posted 05-09-06 04:55 PM EDT (US)     75 / 85  
A raid at 3 minutes? Oh, ladies and gentlemen, this can only mean one thing -- the devastating 5-Envoy Rush! Oh yeah! Come on, we all knew it had to happen eventually!

I've been doing a little envoy rush in occasional games with friends and found it fun (though not remotely ready for prime time.) I'd love to hear about how it's done properly! Good luck getting some recordings.

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