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Topic Subject: The Bank Spank
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posted 03-09-06 02:51 AM EDT (US)   
New version: Bank Spank 2.0

Dutch have a hard time these days with FF being the norm. It seems impossible to compete. Despair no more, Dutch's answer to the FF is in this very post. If you want to actually look forward to playing your next Spanish opponent, read on.

Summary: This is a FF-turtle with skirms, banks, booming, and a 150 pop military. In other words, it has ALL THE GOODS!

It's strengths:
* Kick-ass economy
* Good colonial defense
* A fast Age III time
* Good use of banks
* Beats any attack before 10 min (with proper scouting of course)

It's weaknesses:
* Britain (they will out-boom you every time)
* Grenadiers


Cards needed:
3 vils
Colonial Militia
1000G
9 skirms
4 towers
1000W
Religous Freedom


Very Helpful Cards:
1000F
10 Ruyters
9 Halbs
Mercenaries
-40% inf/cav train time
Advanced Arsenal


******** THE STRAT *********

Age I:
* Build 10 vils from the TC
First 4 vils go to wood for a wall. As this wood comes in, build a wall around your entire base.
* Play 3 vil card
20 vils total. Yes that does work, read on.

Age II 5:50 -- 200G + 1 Tower
During age-up, put 11 vils on food, 9 on gold.
At this point you will know whether they are rushing. If and only if they are, send Colonial Militia and keep 400f/400g handy for the minutemen.
* Get the tower up
* Build a house
* Collect the 2 gold crates
You should end up with just enough food/gold by 6:50. Don't get any more food than you need.

Age III 7:20 -- Exiled Prince
During age-up, put 15 vils on wood, 5 vils on gold
* Play 1000 gold card
* Play 9 skirm card
* Build a house
* Build an artillery range and train 2 culverins
* Play 4 Towers

By 9:45 you will have:
* walls surrounding your base
* 9 skirms
* 2 culverins
* ~25 vils

This is where things start getting fun. If he attacks, rejoice. You have the ideal defenses and will wipe out anything, yes ANYTHING he could possibly throw at you this early. If he booms instead, don't worry, you're about to build 6 banks.

Bank Spank
Move vils so you have 15 on food 10 on wood.
* Play 1000W card
* Build 4 banks
* Build a church
* Play Religious Freedom card
* Reserach Coffee Trade
* Use the market to buy wood if you are low. It's worth it, since you will get your banks up sooner.
* Build 2 banks
* Build a market and research gang saws + great coat.
* The rest is up to you! Just know that you're gonna need 15 houses within 5 min because that's how fast the resources are going to come in.


******** NOTES *********

6 banks?!?!
Ideally, you will be left alone and will have nothing to make but those 6 banks. However, if it looks as though your opponent is ramping up for an attack soon, you will have to hold off on the banks, build a barraks instead and make more skirms/culvs. This is something you have to watch for yourself and judge accurately. If you make too many banks, you could end up with a gaping hole in your wall. If you make too much military, it's very easy for the opponent to out-boom you.

In my experience, about half of my opponents see the skirms and culverins, and assume that there will be even more skirms/culverins when they come back. This "implied army" is what will allow you boom.

If you're up against a boom civ (Ports, French, Dutch), you can be almost certain that they will boom vs your turtle, so you must make those banks your top priority. This is especially true of Ports, who won't have good age-III seige. You can match the port boom only if you get those banks up asap, so it's a matter of win/lose there. Ideally you will have all 6 banks up by 15 min.

Once your banks are up, you have created a monsterous eco and can spam any unit you want. Your goal then is to get to 200 pop. That's not to say you shouldn't attack before then, since some situations will call for that. I like to make culv/falc/skirm/pike. Some prefer Ruyter/Falc. Do whatever suits you and best counters the enemy. Once you have an army that you think will beat theirs, move on out!

About the wall:
When constructing your wall, keep in mind 3 things: food, wood, and space. Don't worry about gold. Your first gold mine is 2000g, which is enough to get you to fortress. The 1000g card will get you culvs and 2 vils. The banks will take it from there.
Food: Try to get 2 herds into your walls. Look for sheep/lamas/cows. You need at least 2500F within your walls by the time they are up. Berries are 1000F each so if you have 3 of those, you're fine.
Wood: If you can't enclose a bunch of trees with your walls, that's ok. You can build the walls so that trees are just outside your base and your vils are only a few steps from safety.
Space: If you make the wall too big, you will have too much area to defend. If it's too small, you will be forced to build outside of it. There are some buildings that can go outside the wall safely. These are banks, the market, and the church (who attacks a church?). Everything else should go inside, so make sure you have room.

Misc notes:
Shipped towers give you 35 XP each when built.
6 banks are 840 XP.
A smart opponent will always attack your weakest side, so careful with those towers.
Your opponent will out-boom you if you let him take the water, so after banks are up make this your next economic priority. The 3 fluyt card helps.
Raiding is always a good thing. Don't let the above build order prevent you from a timely vil massacre.

Acknowledgments: ultimitsu contributed 2 great ideas to this strat. Tons of others here have shared much wisdom that has helped me.

Quotes:
"I've never seen that before!" ~ treebeardIII
"You did me a surprise." ~ a 2k player
"It'd hurt pretty bad to get spanked by a bank" ~EmpireDoja

Screenshot

Recorded Game


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.

[This message has been edited by jaafit (edited 05-11-2006 @ 03:39 AM).]

Replies:
posted 05-09-06 05:17 PM EDT (US)     76 / 85  
^ You are kidding right. Those things like use their fists to fight, lol. They could not cause any damage if there were like 30 of them...

Also, above I said "With 10 villies going up to colonial you are not going to hit the advance button any sooner than 1:30/45 which means that you cannot be in colonial any faster than 3:00 which also means that any shipment or unit production cannot be done before 3:30-40"

Let's say that you hit colonial at 3:00 and you advanced with 10/11 villies. You would have two ships at this time so you can ship 3 hussar at that point and they will arrive at 3:40 so you can start raiding and follow it up with 700w. If you had gone after gold during advancing you can queue up 2-4 villies, when you advance switch 8-9 to food, leave 1-2 on gold and put all produced villies on gold. They you can put up a bank and proceed with some kind of strat...that could potentially work. All in all tho, there is no way that you can raid at 3:00...it's impossible.


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posted 05-09-06 05:38 PM EDT (US)     77 / 85  
^ I agree, it's hilarious, but also not as silly as it may sound. I am betting I'm right about the approach for a 3:00 raid. It's really not possible to assemble anything else besides envoys at that point in the game. And I do agree, it is laugh-out-loud funny when those puffy-shirted weenies start uppercutting villagers in the discovery age.

They are far from a devastating force, but they are fun shock troops. Remember that jaafit described a raid, and 5 envoys are actually a pain in the butt to kill without real troops (as they have decent hitpoints.) Do you garrison? Do you call minutemen? It definitely won't do huge damage to you, but with the dutchman only paying 200 food for this "army", it takes some care to make sure your "response" isn't more expensive than the attack.

When I've tried this in casual games, I can either usually kill a vill or 2 or cause a lot of wasted villager-seconds in fighting \ running \ etc. My guess is that good players would sense how to keep their villagers safe without losing the equivalent of 200 food in villager-seconds.

I could be wrong about the raid, but I really don't think so. I'm thinking it's going to be bold, aggressive and unorthodox. Gotta be an envoy raid. Don't forget this is the father of the Skirm Skewer we are talking about here!

[This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 05-09-2006 @ 05:49 PM).]

posted 05-09-06 06:32 PM EDT (US)     78 / 85  
lol, if I'm playing French I will kill all your envoys while still gathering food + at 3 minutes most my herdables are near the tc, so all I need to do is garrison 1 villie to cause damage to your envoys...finally, pioneers and/or great coat mean the end to envoy rush lol =D

I got to admit tho, that would be a pretty insane strat, lol =D


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posted 05-09-06 07:00 PM EDT (US)     79 / 85  
Ha ha, good point about the French! They wouldn't "last" that much longer than normal vills (as they lack melee resistance), but they'd be much better at fighting back (with a nice attack.) I bet that French counter this well.

The amazing thing about the envoys is that they each have 200 hp. So 5 of them means you have to cause 1000 hp of damage before they're gone. Therefore, garrisoning a single villager at 9 hp per shot wouldn't do the trick. I think it requires a bit more "oomph". I'd say "Great Coat" is always a nice tech (if you're making a market.) This is nice since it lasts with you throughout the game and protects from hussar raids.

I definitely don't think that an envoy raid would be about causing catastrophic damage. I think it's mostly to just take someone by surprise and, more than anything, fun.

[This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 05-09-2006 @ 07:01 PM).]

posted 05-09-06 07:19 PM EDT (US)     80 / 85  
Now I am really curious what he could come up with. I just read the Skirmisher Skewer and I must admit it is a pretty bold strategy (other than it leaves your economy in ruins). I guess surprise is its element =) hehe

But yeah, serriously now, I guess you could cause some distraction with envoys tho to me it would be like one of those do-or-die strats =| Still, It's interesting...I can't wait 'till he has something up =)


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posted 05-09-06 08:16 PM EDT (US)     81 / 85  
jaafit realised that because dutch vils are so expensive, the longer one has to mine to power vils the worse one gets, this was not considered in the original post.

after i studied dutch eco structure i came to this conclusion, putting banks up ealy is essential, as many as possible in fact.

posted 05-10-06 01:22 PM EDT (US)     82 / 85  
^ Yup, I agree...my impression for some time is that those banks are supposed to fuel your eco (after all the 50 vil. pop for dutch is kind of a dead giveaway), the problem is tho in how to get them up quickly and efficiently, and still have the flexibility to defend in colonial and be agressive in fortress...

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posted 05-10-06 07:22 PM EDT (US)     83 / 85  
Unfortunately, just as I thought I had this thing down, I saw a way to improve it slightly. So I need more time to get recordings and get my rating back up to something respectible.

If you're wondering what changed, I removed the raid at 3:00. It looks good on paper and always slows the opponent down, but it slows you down as well -- more than I had at first realized. The rest of the strat is still mind-bogglingly good I think, but I will leave that for you all to decide.

I can't play much this week so look for this strat to appear sometime on Saturday. edit: well nevermind! my plans were canceled tonight so I played some aoe3 games and beat two 2k players with this strat. I think it's time to share

Mokon, can you close this thread please?


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.

[This message has been edited by jaafit (edited 05-11-2006 @ 02:21 AM).]

posted 05-14-06 09:14 PM EDT (US)     84 / 85  
I have tried this strat and since everyone plays the germans, it seems like it does not work. I'm aging on time but what I have a problem with is that once I get my fort/4-towers up he has a million horses with three cannons and mercs. Since the siege damage is insane on the mercs/cannons the towers and fort go down and I die.
posted 05-15-06 04:02 AM EDT (US)     85 / 85  

Quote:

I have tried this strat and since everyone plays the germans, it seems like it does not work. I'm aging on time but what I have a problem with is that once I get my fort/4-towers up he has a million horses with three cannons and mercs. Since the siege damage is insane on the mercs/cannons the towers and fort go down and I die.


Ok first of all, wrong thread. I would like to see this thread closed but if it must remain open, at least don't talk about the new version here in the old verion's thread. It will get too confusing.

To answer your question: If he has a million horses, 3 cannons and mercs by the time you get the fort/4 towers, I have to assume you didn't get those up fast enough. The fort should by up by 8:30, the towers probably around 9:00.

However, assuming he somehow did have that much of an army by then, I would have to say the right thing to do at that point is to skip religious freedom, get a military shipment, and make something at the fort as well. Hopefully that arrives before all your defenses are down. Your fort probably won't make it but if you can save maybe 3 towers and kill off most of his mercs, he's probably going to leave you alone for a while. Then your next shipment can be religous freedom.

I haven't run into this situation though so I can't say for sure if that will work.


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.
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