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Topic Subject: French Grenadier FF
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posted 06-01-06 09:00 AM EDT (US)   
**Edited**

Right this is my new French strategy I came up when looking over the French cards to see if I wanted to play them, Since I've been testing the strategy in single player and must say thanks to Flammifer for giving me some advice on how to improve the strategy, and Stophon4 and Mono Ager for helping me with the strategy in the thread.

The purpose of this strategy is to pump and ship powerful units to defeat the enemy army whilst using the Frenchís church card to get 12 veteran grenadiers for a mere 1500 food for siege along with 2 falconets for siege and defeating enemy armies.

Here are some example decks



The Build Order

- Send 2 coir des bours to hunt 1 to herd and the other 2 to collect only the food crates then all coir des bours go onto food
- Make 4 coir des bours and then ship 3 so you do not have to build a house yet
- age up with the 400 wood Politian and use it to build a trade post and housing
- While aging put a few coir des bours on gold to get 300 gold including the starting crates, then all coir des bours go to food
- queue 2 coir des bours to build in 2nd age
- send 700 gold
- Whilst aging to fortress age leave 10 villagers on food and put the rest on wood, use the wood they bring in to build a church and then just build as many houses as possible, as getting housed is a rather big problem with this strategy, avoiding being housed and ordering the right units it the key to this strategy
- then proceed to the fortress age, the Politian you use depends on the effect you want, you could do a really fast ff and try and catch the enemy off guard with your grenadiers or you could do the more defensive version (which this is the build order for) and then take your enemy out after you defend his attacks.
- While aging send the edict of Nantes card
- Send an Anti Cavalry Shipment to protect your skirmishers and Grenadiers, 10 pikes or 5 goons.
- After researching the two grenadier techs start producing coir des bours and put them on whatever resource is necessary
- about now your enemy will attack if its an ff but you have the advantage as its in your base so just defend well and your army should be well intact, make sure you keep your grenadiers alive as they are your siege power.
- You should attack no matter what your enemiesí strategy was as this attack should now demolish your enemy, but be cautious if his strategy was a fast industrial as he will be rather defensive
-When you Attack be sure to damage his eco as much as possible and when he has his eco protected kill his outposts if he has any, then go for military buildings and houses and then for the town centre, while doing all this use your scout and explorer effectively to make sure no villagers sneak out and if they do use your scout to follow them

One thing I will mention is that you should not fall into the trap of following a set build order every game a build order is really just a general guideline past early colonial as from there it could all change for example you get rushed, that is one of the reasons people loss to rushes easily they just follow their build order and their town centre goes down before the reach fort and they wonder why they lost. A prime example is in the first recording, I like the skirmisher unit so favoured sending a skirmisher card upon reaching fortress even though I knew German + no raiding = uhlan army and look what happens.

Hereís Two Recordings of my performing this strategy against the hard computer:

http://www.savefile.com/files/8306023
http://www.savefile.com/files/6985141

And a 3rd one taken from a quicksearch game
http://www.savefile.com/files/8763225

My Cuetech is 1782 overall and 1764 1 vs. 1 at this moment.

[This message has been edited by Destiny_Devil (edited 06-11-2006 @ 02:43 PM).]

Replies:
posted 06-09-06 08:04 PM EDT (US)     101 / 161  
This strat is completely devastating with BWKIC Offensive!

Me and will (from our clan destiny) have been doing this and lost no games when we started doing it. We won a ~1950 and an ~1800 whilst I'm ~1700 and he's ~1750-1800. We didn't just win, we absolutely pwned them! Best game ever, it lasted quite a while. They put up a good fight but it was clear from the beginning they didn't have the eco to match us. We had about 75% of the map and they were in this little corner helpless. Late game those cuirs pwn. With rockets! Such a good game.

I think it was 15 cuirs took out 40 cassies with only 1 or 2 losses. Lol it was carolina so I built a TP early on with the extra wood and therefore managed to get pikes as well on time with my attack. I sent 12 middle guard naders, 6 skirms and 10 pikes. He sent off high landers and 2 falcs all at about 8:30. Took out his complete town but he took a few vills to purple and built up a little bit again. But we had boomed and gone industrial had a pumping eco. French and Brit late game = unstoppable. At the end it was rockets and HCs, old guard naders and a load of upgraded cuirs and imperial red coats :P

http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/GameStats.aspx?loc=en-US&GameID=dd90201b-c304-cf42-8b1a-faf693eeeb72&m d=ZS_Supremacy


bah
posted 06-09-06 08:12 PM EDT (US)     102 / 161  
Contrary to what most believe, I think that grenaiders are a bit over powered. They resist ranged attack pretty well, only dying to melee attack (which they are impossible to get to since they almost always have a meatshield, or if massed, ruin any melee unit before they reach them.

And this ruins the BWKiC (I mean it totally crushes it).

And no offense to the thread starter, but this is no more than the French version of the BWKiC, not exactly original and I think some credit is due to Beatnik for his idea.

Nevertheless, a strong strategy.

And the strategy rocks but if the enemy sends in calvary early your screwed. But on the other hand, the crappy pathing of the calvary really gives you an advantage :P


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_

[This message has been edited by Brtnboarder495 (edited 06-09-2006 @ 08:14 PM).]

posted 06-10-06 06:50 AM EDT (US)     103 / 161  
Nice mono, and Brtnboarder495 seriously what is your rating all i've seen over this site from you is random crap, the only similarity between this and beatniks strategy is that they both utilise the strength of the church card, the builds are nothing alike.
posted 06-10-06 07:50 AM EDT (US)     104 / 161  

Quote:

And the strategy rocks but if the enemy sends in calvary early your screwed. But on the other hand, the crappy pathing of the calvary really gives you an advantage :P

If you read up a few posts there has been a lot on how to handle cavalry.


bah

[This message has been edited by MoNo Ager (edited 06-10-2006 @ 08:36 AM).]

posted 06-10-06 10:01 AM EDT (US)     105 / 161  
I've been using this strategy months before the BWIC was released, and to the thread starter, it relaly is more unique than just a BWIC.

"Dutch are OP!"
"Iriquois are OP!"
"Stophon is OP!"

tEk Clan #1 US Clan
posted 06-10-06 10:35 AM EDT (US)     106 / 161  
Yep thanks stophon, this should be in strategy central whenever I can get hold of mokon cos for some reason my emails keep getting returned with a failed message.
posted 06-10-06 11:24 AM EDT (US)     107 / 161  
If you want you can send me all the files you need to send and I'll send it for you.

bah
posted 06-10-06 11:34 AM EDT (US)     108 / 161  

Quote:

Contrary to what most believe, I think that grenaiders are a bit over powered. They resist ranged attack pretty well, only dying to melee attack (which they are impossible to get to since they almost always have a meatshield, or if massed, ruin any melee unit before they reach them.

What are you talking about? Of course they die to ranged attack - falcs, light infantry, ranged heavy infantry all beat them cost effectively, and also fast heavy infantry owns them too (Remember 6 grens=13 pikemen). The only thing grens do better than anything else is sieging in colonial, which is of course the reason why nobody uses them past colonial.

posted 06-10-06 11:51 AM EDT (US)     109 / 161  

Quote:

Nice mono, and Brtnboarder495 seriously what is your rating all i've seen over this site from you is random crap, the only similarity between this and beatniks strategy is that they both utilise the strength of the church card, the builds are nothing alike.

Don't complain or he may start to complain about Russians being overpowered and bitching about the Otto rush again. His posts are already a lot more useful than they were when he first arrived...

But Destiny is right, this strategy is completely different to the bwkic and the only similarity whatsoever is the advanced church card.


ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
posted 06-10-06 01:03 PM EDT (US)     110 / 161  
mono ager i kinda have to disagree w/ u on the whole "unstoppable" combination of the bwkitc and a french gren ff. in my experiences, a double rush always takes down two people trying to shoot for fortress. i just do not think it would be close cause with ur enemies combined rushes you both wont have tcs by the time you hit fortress. also, all the rushers really have to do is come in and destroy your churches and both the strats are thrown off emensly

Eso: Otis_
PR: 32 / 1980 on cuetech
posted 06-10-06 01:17 PM EDT (US)     111 / 161  
posted 06-10-06 02:39 PM EDT (US)     112 / 161  

Quote:

mono ager i kinda have to disagree w/ u on the whole "unstoppable" combination of the bwkitc and a french gren ff. in my experiences, a double rush always takes down two people trying to shoot for fortress. i just do not think it would be close cause with ur enemies combined rushes you both wont have tcs by the time you hit fortress. also, all the rushers really have to do is come in and destroy your churches and both the strats are thrown off emensly

It's certainly not unstoppable as me and Will just learnt (but to be fair they were much higher rated than us, a colonel and a major vs captain and a 1st lt)

What they did to stop it was the port went FF and boomed whilst the dutch (who we thought to attack since being dutch with a slowish start) stayed in colonial (which we didn't notice) and we were greeted to about 30 skirms. We took most of the skirms out but had about 1 gren left a falc and a highlander but then port came and took us out. We tried to take map control all went industrial. Then we lost purely coz of their superior micro etc...

I'm trying to make 2 points here, the combination is not unstoppable like timbo1390 said. But saying that we recovered pretty easily and had more resources than them even when it failed. Had we been equal skill I think we could of won though our FF failed.

And concerning rushes, you're right. We are selecting against which civs to do this against. If we're against otto's with rushing decks, we don't do this. But against brits, ports, germans even, dutch, spanish, and to some extent russians it works very well. If the otto's go FF or FI it also works very well.

To conclude, the combination isn't unstoppable, but it's damn powerful. It's failed very few times since we've done it. It's like an uber FF.

And about the destroying church thing early on, never thought of that before. It could pose a threat. But as I said if you figure out what strat they're planning by scouting and viewing deck then you can usually decide whether to go ahead or not. Obviously this won't work in every situation, you have to be flexible


bah

[This message has been edited by MoNo Ager (edited 06-10-2006 @ 02:40 PM).]

posted 06-10-06 02:55 PM EDT (US)     113 / 161  
destiny devil, i also had some thoughts on the sample decks you posted. i think that for your strat, the first deck is the best. the only thing i would think about changing is adding the 1000 wood card for booming as previously mentioned and i would take out the lands card. w/ the two gren shipments you should have plenty of seige... if you dont then the strat sucks and youll lose anyway.

Eso: Otis_
PR: 32 / 1980 on cuetech
posted 06-10-06 03:45 PM EDT (US)     114 / 161  
nah I do have enough seige as I'd normally send 2 falcs too, just landsheckt are powerful so I threw em in there, also the 2nd deck is for an uber fast fortress and the 3rd is for a Fi version.
posted 06-10-06 11:54 PM EDT (US)     115 / 161  
Cuetech stuff is in my sig, and I'm certainly not saying that this is identical to the BWKiC, but I'm sure that strategy is what spurred you to invest time into researching similiar strategies using different civs, correct?

And grenaiders are most powerful in Age2 than any other age, and surely they are ruined by cannons, but you need a significant meatsheild to prevent the cannons from being focus fired and killed. As I see it, Grenaiders are either extremely powerful or extremely weak depending on how use.

And a well-performed FF can own a rush. You should be able to get your cannons and a few pikes or other unit by 7:30-8. It really depends on if the rusher likes to wait until they have a huge force and attack or send in units in groups of five continiously. Usually the first choice will be easier to beat by using a FF.

Quote:

mono ager i kinda have to disagree w/ u on the whole "unstoppable" combination of the bwkitc and a french gren ff. in my experiences, a double rush always takes down two people trying to shoot for fortress. i just do not think it would be close cause with ur enemies combined rushes you both wont have tcs by the time you hit fortress. also, all the rushers really have to do is come in and destroy your churches and both the strats are thrown off emensly

Agreed. It's suicide for two players to FF when you have two potential rushers that could be at your doorstep by 6:30 or earlier with a mixed army of both teams. If one FF's and the other rushes and/or raids and plays aggressive, then you are risking a lot less and will probably succeed.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
posted 06-11-06 06:44 AM EDT (US)     116 / 161  
Congrats Destiny a very good strat! I have to admit I have become the victim to one of these.

Could I ask what you would do if you were fighting a German merc spammer?

Quote:

And this ruins the BWKiC (I mean it totally crushes it).

I think the different strategies have different strong points but I think they would both throw a surprise punch in anyoneís plan. But I have to disagree with you when you say this ruins the BWKiC. I think the BWKiC would come on top for the following reasons:

-Get a TP earlier due to the fact they donít have to wait untill age 2 to get the wood.
-Gain an extra villager at the beginning because of the manor house. This means they will have more or the same res. going in to age2 due to the couers.
-Probably get into age 3 around the same time. Possibly the Brits faster because of the 500f at the beginning at colonial or 200g. Lets say all the cards sent at the same time and they reach fort at the same time, the BWKiC will be able to get the BW out quicker mainly due to the fact they cost 1000f instead of 1500f this leaves the Brits an extra 500f to do what they want with compared to the french. They will also probably have a shipment earlier than the French as they got the TP up faster (however this might not happen due to the fact the French will have built more houses than the Brit by this time, so the XP from them will help but I donít know which is better Iíve never done any tests but I assume itís the TP).so the Brits could send 2 falcs then 10lbows, 5 hussars, 6 grensÖdepends on the game. They could also put up a rax and pump out lbows.
-And if the gren FF or BWKiC fail the Brits can boom with there manors and multiple TCís they will have set up by this time unlike the French. Plus the manors will provide much needed XP for more fortress shipments.
-The Brit will also have placed his tower if he had aged up with the 200g somewhere forward to secure resources/ gain map control.

Anyway il have to test it out more to come to a total conclusion. Anyway again Nice one Destiny! sorry ive been so late in reading it. i think i might just try my old french HC again.!


Currently playing:- British!

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

ESO - The_Rifleman

posted 06-11-06 07:45 AM EDT (US)     117 / 161  
I'd say this comes out on top myself bluebow, because the 12 nadiers will take care of those falcs in seconds and then skirms nadiers and pikes will be able to beat 8 highlanders and any lbows they can throw at you after that with minimal losses. Although the brit will get shipments faster and get the politiation they both get to age 3 the same time and I tend to have 1500 food at the same time i would 1000 with brits because both have the same amount of villagers and 10 cours >> 10 villagers the rest are elsewere also the french army is a strong counter to the british one.
posted 06-11-06 09:54 AM EDT (US)     118 / 161  

Quote:

I'd say this comes out on top myself bluebow, because the 12 nadiers will take care of those falcs in seconds and then skirms nadiers and pikes will be able to beat 8 highlanders and any lbows they can throw at you after that with minimal losses.


Until you post a recorded game against some human competition, it's hard to judge (will you be doing this soon?) I think I'd have to disagree and go with Bluebow's take on this. In my opinion, you're somewhat overestimating what 12 grenadiers will be able to do in this situation. Remember that falconets have a range of 26 and receive a x3.0 bonus against infantry (for 300 damage.) The grenadiers will also suffer in melee against the highlanders.

I think the 12 grenadiers are a great siege force, but geared more toward siege instead of large-scale, direct confrontations. BWKiC is the opposite -- that force is designed for direct combat first, siege second.

My advice for Britnboarder would be:

  • Get the fastest fortress and military delivery times that you can.
  • Scout for the French church and the possible forward tower. If you see a forward tower, you should be able to bring it down.
  • Do not fear a direct military confrontation, but keep any fighting out of range of the enemy TC. Attack grenadiers from range with the falconets. Charge in with your highlanders in stagger mode until you can use melee mode against the grenadiers. Become comfortable with this mode switching and it will pay you great dividends. Realize that when being struck at range by falconets (for 300 damage a pop) and melee'd by highlanders, the grenadiers will have a lot of trouble.
  • Consider using shipments such as 5 hussars and perhaps delaying longbows. If you do opt for hussars, use them against the grenadiers to create space for your falcs and to deal damage. Do try to keep them safe from any anti-cav the Frenchman may have produced. So long as your falcs are at a distance from his grens, the middle guard grenadiers will very quickly take casualties. Spread your falc shots so that they strike different targets in the gren formation.

    Quote:

    And no offense to the thread starter, but this is no more than the French version of the BWKiC, not exactly original and I think some credit is due to Beatnik for his idea.


    I do sincerely appreciate the sentiment, and I would in fact be very happy if BWKiC might have nudged people to take a 2nd look at the church techs. I think in this particular case, Stophon4 was the person to invent this strategy quite some time ago, and I think Destiny was simply the first to share it in writing.

    I think I'm just happy to see that the French now have a good FF that they can use.


    Strategies:
    - BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
    - The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
  • posted 06-11-06 10:37 AM EDT (US)     119 / 161  
    With this strat, it's very easy to get an early TP too. I do this often. At the start you often start with 200 wood. And instead of building a house, I put 3 CdBs on wood and the rest on food. I keep them on wood until I build a TP(first) and then a house) and then all go on wood. This delays you like 20 seconds on age up but you'll have another shipment in fortress (which I usually ship pikes or 2 falcs). Naders do incredible against the 2 falcs card.

    Its true that falcs have a larger range if you split up the pikes and naders and attack from both sides, sending the skirms first. The player focuses the falcs on the skirms, then you bring the naders from behind and destroy them in more or less 1 shot with proper micro. Maybe its 2. If you distract the highlanders with your pikes or something, those naders take down the TC really fast, which is what you really want. Get what else you can. If you damage them enough and you're around equal skill you usually have other shipments and a load of gold and food by the time your naders are dead (as well as their backward force) you can usually produce a few cuirs to go around and take out any escaping vills or build skirms and send BR. OR if you damaged them enough (which usually happens) you go industrial.

    It's a battle between 8 highlanders, 2 falcs and a few lbows vs 12 naders, 6 skirms and (if you got the early TP), either 10 pikes, 2 falcs. Whatever really

    Beatnik Joe, I will try to get a rec of this against BWKiC.


    bah
    posted 06-11-06 11:08 AM EDT (US)     120 / 161  
    Remember the nadiers are royal guard beatnik, and I've been doing this strat for a while now and only lost 2 games so far and one was against someone rated very close to me and one rated a fair bit higher than me. Beatnik this will probably our next game anyway and I swear I'll win this time. Also i you suspect the bwick you can always send the skirm card first to take care of the highlanders whilw the nadiers make short work of the falcs, any smart person will put everything into stragger mode so 2 falc shots without micro = 1 skirm dead with micro it means 2 :P.
    posted 06-11-06 11:41 AM EDT (US)     121 / 161  
    As with all new, and rather powerful strats (look at the dutch gren rush too), a strategy like this will last as long as the typical enemy isn't in the know about what is coming. If many people pick it up and begin to know about it, then they will know how to defend it, rendering it less useful.

    Just like the BWKiC, it is powerful but IMO is a bit less powerful now because you'd be suprised how many of my enemies can predict what I'm doing. It's being caught off gaurd that makes it powerful IMO, not the actual strategy itself. Nevertheless it certainly works for now.


    Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
    posted 06-11-06 01:33 PM EDT (US)     122 / 161  
    We'll see, I don't reckon this will be as big as the bwck, I predict this lasting a long time if you can recover fast if it fails.
    posted 06-11-06 02:01 PM EDT (US)     123 / 161  
    Yeah I've never had this performed against me. It's cool that it's on the hush hush so far. And even if they do expect it, it's still very powerful.

    bah
    posted 06-11-06 02:33 PM EDT (US)     124 / 161  
    Hold on just reliased I can probably post a fair few recs vs humans from qs as they record games right. I'll see what I got.

    Edit: I added a 3rd rec against a human dude, right now he is rated 1795 I'm rated 1802 right now.

    [This message has been edited by Destiny_Devil (edited 06-11-2006 @ 02:43 PM).]

    posted 06-11-06 04:16 PM EDT (US)     125 / 161  
    Destiny I tried playing your rec but it only got to 1:22?

    bah
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