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Topic Subject: The Aztec Scout Slam -- an Envoy Rush, Native Style
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posted 12-16-06 12:29 PM EDT (US)   
This article describes a highly unconventional, even disturbing Aztec strat. (Recorded games may be found here .) What you are about to read may shock you and offend your sensibilities. Prepare yourself. In this article, I will ask you to use a card you've never played, to make a unit you've never created, and to construct a building you've never built.

So if you love weird strats and underdog units, you've come to the right place. If you've ever cheered on an envoy rush, I was cheering right along with you. And if you want to find out what has recently gotten me called a "n00b", cussed out and even drop-tricked, then sit back, relax, and join me as I take you through... the Aztec Scout Slam.

The "Light Infantry" Problem
As we know by now, classic "light infantry" (Aennas, Strelets, Cetan Bowmen, Skirmishers, etc.) tend to dictate the pace of combat in the game. Early on, they are countered only by cavalry-type units or other, more powerful light infantry.

Sounds fine so far, but why not just make cavalry? The problem is that cavalry have pathing issues and lose to their counters hard -- units like Pikemen rip down cavalry with a vengeance. On the other hand, the skirmisher family doesn't die so quickly to cavalry. This means that light infantry with an anti-cav meatshield is one of the "safest", most popular types of force troop mixes around. Ever tried dealing with Cetan \ War Club (and the shipped Axe Riders)? Not exactly a picnic, is it?

Don't you wish there were units that could close in with those Cetans and just... and just punch their lights out? One begins to wonder if such a unit does in fact exist. Ah, dare to dream. But... I suppose it couldn't hurt to look, right?

Looking for a Hero
So let's take a peek at (of all things) the humble "Native Scout." He's a harmless-looking little chap -- he's got no shirt, some cool blue war paint, and looks like he weighs about 120 pounds soaking wet. Here are his stats:
120 HP, 5 melee attack, 5 siege, 5.5 speed, 22 LoS, 10% ranged resist, Cost: 90 wood (180 villager-seconds) (Can stealth)

Pathetic! Clearly this weenie is not the man for the job. 5 damage? So why do I even waste your time bringing this silly unit up for discussion? Because the Aztecs (and other natives) have the Advanced Scout card, which raises Scout hitpoints by 50% and their attack ability by a whopping 200%! You will be able to train these guys from your Town Center for 90 wood a piece. (Problematic on a couple counts, I know, but more on that later.)

Here are the new stats for the new and improved Scout:
180 HP, 15 melee attack, 15 siege, 5.5 speed, 22 LoS, 10% ranged resist, Cost: 90w (180 villager-seconds) (Can stealth)

Let's compare that to the Coyote Runner:
150 HP, 18 melee attack, 11 siege, 6.0 speed, 12 LoS, 10% ranged resist, Cost: 85f, 25w (163 villager-seconds) (Can stealth with card)

That's right -- in a 1v1 fight, advanced Scouts break absolutely even with coyotes. Yet Scouts do not share the usual vulnerabilities to Pikemen, Rodeleros,etc. The cost is slightly higher, and the speed is slightly slower, but aside from that, Scouts stack up well in virtually every category.

Pikemen barely scratch them. They can charge into a pack of skirms \ pikes, throwing punches like an army of skinny little Oscar de la Hoya's. The numbers are right there for your perusal and they do not lead you astray -- when appropriately upgraded, these guys can hurt people.

In addition, a batch of 5 takes only 20 seconds to build. So if you've got the wood, you can get a scout army raised in a serious hurry.

Problems and Solutions
So now that I've convinced you that the Scout might be worth your time, let's address some of the obvious problems. Namely, that these guys must be built from the Town Center and cost 90 wood a piece.

Let's talk econ first. Since the unit costs only one resource, this gives us one major advantage -- wood upgrades will be extremely valuable to us. You can think of a 20% wood upgrade as a nearly 20% increase in the speed at which you produce scouts. The next wood upgrade? Another great boost. So we'll need to shoot for constant vill production, native wood upgrades ASAP (for a total bonus of +40% wood gathering), and lots of people on wood.

So on to the next question -- how do we produce these TC-only units without halting villager production and running your economy into the ground? The secret? The Native Embassy.

For those who've never used it, the Native Embassy allows you to build any native unit available to you on the map. Any allied minor natives can deliver units to any Embassy that you've placed. Luckily for you, Scouts fall into that category. Native Embassies cost 100 wood, but can only be built after you capture a minor native TP.

So basically, what do we need to do?

  1. Get to colonial with a good economy.
  2. Not get killed by a rush.
  3. Get lots of wood upgrades and lots of wood choppers.
  4. Capture a native TP.
  5. Build a native embassy.
  6. Make lots and lots of scouts.
  7. Punch things.
  8. Make other units too. Find more things that need punching. See step 7.

There you go! I've told you most of what you need to know to get started. I can give you a sample build order that I've been using lately, but many varieties will work. I welcome your suggestions for improvement!

Sample Build Order
Note: All vill numbers are for villagers only, not for total pop. For example, 18 vills means a pop of 19/20 for 18 vills + a Warrior Priest.

  1. 2 vills hunt, 2 vills to food crates, 1 vill to wood crate.
  2. Lay firepit, house, and perform fertility dance.
  3. All vills to food, age with 17-18 vills. Use the Messenger politician. Switch to gift dance (a step I manage to forget about half the time.)
  4. Important! Do not take unnecessary risks with your War Chief. If he dies, you will fall behind. Find your favorite local native TP and get close to it.
  5. Put 7 vills on food, 7-9 vills on wood 2-4 vills on gold. The number of vills on gold is decided by how close you are to wood chopping upgrades. The first costs 100f, 150g and the second costs 150f, 235g. Each grants a 20% increase in wood chopping.
  6. Ship 10 macehualtins when you hit colonial. Harass with them, but don't get them killed. Keep up with housing and vill production. Do not slip on this. You need wood and you need it fast. The vills must keep coming.
  7. Ship Advanced Scouts as soon as it is available.
  8. Once you have 250w free, build a native TP with your War Chief. Choose one whose units or technology you would potentially like to use down the line.
  9. When the native TP completes, build a Native Embassy, either forward if you're attacking or right at home if you are defending. It only costs 100w, so is easily spammed.
  10. Make scouts from the embassy. 5 can be built every 20 seconds. Attack and harass. Once you get a large enough group, attack large forces of light infantry fearlessly.
  11. Play econ cards such as 5 villagers, 3 trading posts, exotic hardwoods (for a total of +60% wood gathering), 3 Warrior Priests, etc.
  12. Diversify your econ as you see fit.

An alternative, perhaps more rush-proof build order is to keep your Warrior Priest on gift dance from the beginning of the match, and then age with 15-16 villagers. You can then instead ship 10 + 9 macehualtins and delay your Advanced Scout shipment.

Cards
The required cards are:

  • 3 Villagers
  • 10 Macehualtins
  • Advanced Scouts

    Recommended cards:

  • 9 Macehualtins
  • 6 Puma Spearmen
  • 5 villagers
  • Exotic Hardwoods (+20% wood chopping)
  • 3 Warrior Priests
  • 3 Trading Posts

    F.A.Q.
    Do you have any recorded games? Yes, you will see them if you scroll to the bottom -- there are five posted. You can also download them here .

    WTF! I mean... Scouts? I know.

    Come on, is a scout really that powerful? What if I make Rodeleros all day long like I usually do? Won't I pwn you then, u n00b? Scouts stand up surprisingly well to rods. Scouts kill rods in 15 hits, rods kill scouts in 14. If you have a gang of 10-19 macehualtin backing your scouts up, you can shred rods.

    What have you inflicted on the community? Do these things have any counters at all? Don't you care about the non-native players?? Yes, they can be countered. If you download the game pack, check the game against Walker. He is the only player that has so far attempted to build a hard counter for scouts (quite impressive as he has only had the x-pack for a few days.) Since Scouts are classified as "Native" troops, spies act as a hard counter for them. If your opponent doesn't know this, well... life is much more difficult for them.

    How about falconets? Yes, artillery can be quite a threat! You certainly won't want to hang around and get blasted. I'll just address the case where you are in colonial and your opponent is in fortress, as in fortress v fortress matches, Arrow Knights are the obvious choice. I'll also assume that you have been attacking your opponent throughout his FF to slow him up and that you have a large contingent of scouts by the time his cannons are out. (You have been harrassing an FFer, haven't you? If not, start today!)

    Trick number one is to always be attacking so that if those cannons come out of the TC you can just mob them. If they are not properly shielded, his shipment goes down the tubes.

    Trick number two (the fun one) is to try to kill the enemy explorer at some point before battle commences, go into stealth mode, and walk right up to the cannons. Since scouts do 15 per shot, it takes 14 punches to kill a cannon. If you close the distance, they don't have a prayer. Walk right up to them and punch each one. Don't worry about anything else but those cannon until they are dead. Then either run or punch your way out. (I perform this in the game vs. Russia from the game pack.)

    It can also be a question of where the cannons are. You have all the line of sight and all the speed. If his cannons are turtling in his base, you can simply circle like a shark, harrass, and boom until you are fortress yourself. If his cannons are slowly trundling toward your base, he has to keep them protected at all times. You have the opportunity to raid his vills, stealth-raid his cannons or whatever else you might like to do. Overall, the journey of getting cannons to your base is fraught with peril, so you have a little time. Don't take forever though!

    Any other hard counters? Lancers, spahi, and cuirassiers are all pretty hard counters (especially lancers.) But don't be fooled -- small numbers of each can be mobbed by a huge number of scouts. Even so, I recommend employing anti-cav for these situations. I know of no other hard counters, but most cavalry units (and rodeleros) at least break even with scouts. I do not believe native civs have any hard counters to scouts. They are in general not easy to counter at all, particularly if you do not see them coming.

    Recorded Games
    You can download the Scout Slam Game Pack here. This is a rundown of the included games:

    ScoutSlamVPorts.age3rec -- This rec is against Walker's Portuguese and shows just how annoying this can be against even the best-executed FF. He takes the honor of being the first opponent to figure out that spies are a hard counter for scouts.

    ScoutSlamVRussia.age3rec -- A game against strelet spam. Notice how much sturdier scouts are against muskets (compared to coyotes.)

    ScoutSlamVOttoFF.age3rec -- A game against an Otto FF, using the 19-macehualtin build. This game shows why I really like to carry the 6-puma shipment. Spahis are inevitable and a bit problematic for scouts. Notice, though, that if catch them out alone, scouts are capable of handling straggler Spahi very well.

    ScoutSlamVSioux.age3rec -- This rec is unfortunately a bit ownage (the macehualtins do more damage than they should), but does illustrate the build against Sioux.

    ObsoleteScoutSlamVSioux.age3rec -- This rec shows a completely obsolete, experimental build order, but the one valuable thing about it is that it shows Cetan spam get reamed by Scouts. A fun recording to watch as you get to see Scouts K.O. Cetans, Axe Riders, and even Dog Soldiers.

    GL HF
    Hopefully this gives you a good picture of what this strat is all about, but please feel free to ask any questions you have. I welcome feedback on any aspect of the strat and I'd love to hear about any experiences you have while trying it out. Good luck and thanks for reading!

    Thanks to Garlef and Septimus for feedback and ideas on the strat, and to Walker for post-game feedback (and not reporting my h4x to ES.) Thanks to Destiny_Devil for taking Scouts for a spin in team games. And of course thanks as always to MNBob for his unit sheets!


    Strategies:
    - BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
    - The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style

    [This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 12-22-2006 @ 09:57 AM).]

  • Replies:
    posted 12-21-06 00:06 AM EDT (US)     51 / 215  
    Nice strat! Since I don't have a good aztec HC I decided to try it with the Sioux. I have found it has mixed results. The firepit part is not so effective, but the 400 politician is wonderful. Instead of maces, I send some cetans, and build those also. The scouts are wonderful to mob cannons and everything else with. The first few times it was hard to keep vil production up, but now I have found a good balance. I just beat a russian, and kept calling me a "clucking" n00b. Then he said he would report me for using cheats to get the scouts. I just laughed until I hurt. then he pulled the plug.THanks Joe!
    posted 12-21-06 08:41 AM EDT (US)     52 / 215  
    Had a good game of this the other day had a french ally against a british guy and an ottoman, it looked a losing battle for a little while then the scouts came hehe. The enemy did a rush of grenadiers and jans, the stupid thing was that the british guy grenadier rushed me and the ottoman jan rushed my ally, i sent my army (made of li) to my help ym partners xbows and he sent his hussars to get rid of the grenadiers, by the second wave I had 25 scouts and 21 jags needless to they lost I went ot their base and they resigned on the spot.
    posted 12-21-06 09:08 AM EDT (US)     53 / 215  
    Well that was quite scary. I meet Joe in quicksearch and this is the result. GG Joe.

    Even the scouts are no match for my cuirs xD


    ESO : Pcfreak8
    "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
    A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
    Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
    posted 12-21-06 09:50 AM EDT (US)     54 / 215  

    Quoted from The_Underminer:

    Nice strat! Since I don't have a good aztec HC I decided to try it with the Sioux. I have found it has mixed results. The firepit part is not so effective, but the 400 politician is wonderful. Instead of maces, I send some cetans, and build those also. The scouts are wonderful to mob cannons and everything else with. The first few times it was hard to keep vil production up, but now I have found a good balance.


    Cool, glad you tried it out with Sioux! I'm definitely not surprised that it was harder to take advantage of the firepit, but I bet that 400 wood politician was pretty sweet!

    Quoted from The_Underminer:

    I just beat a russian, and kept calling me a "clucking" n00b. Then he said he would report me for using cheats to get the scouts. I just laughed until I hurt. then he pulled the plug.THanks Joe!


    LOL. If I could only tell you how many times this has happened to me. I've gotten some serious belly laughs out of the reactions I often get. I've also learned several creative internet-style swear words so, you know, bonus points there!

    Quoted from Destiny_Devil:

    Had a good game of this the other day had a french ally against a british guy and an ottoman, it looked a losing battle for a little while then the scouts came hehe.


    Awesome, nicely done! I'm glad you're getting a chance to try this out in team games (as this is not my forte.) Since the only direct counter for scouts is unlikely to be on the field, you can usually push hard on any army they've got fielded.

    Quoted from somme:

    Well that was quite scary. I meet Joe in quicksearch and this is the result. GG Joe. Even the scouts are no match for my cuirs xD


    gg somme, I had a blast! Great move flushing me off of Mayans. Since you knew I was going for scouts, the Maya TP was precisely the one I wanted to grab to counter your cavalry. You managed to delay the scout spam over and over again... really well-done.

    After I'd KO'd all the muskets, I started to hallucinate that the scouts might pull another one out of the fire for me. That is, until those card-upgraded cuirs arrived and trapped me in your base! OP!!!

    If there's anyone looking for a few ideas on how to properly counter this strat, I think Somme did everything right -- blocking the obvious "favorite" native TP can create a good delay. I also made a huge mistake and got my Warchief killed early on. I had to dance him back home, delaying me quite badly.

    Quoted from Beatnik Joe:

    Important! Do not take unnecessary risks with your War Chief.


    Oooh yeah... good advice! I'll listen more closely to this guy in the future! He's obviously a lot smarter than I am.

    Strategies:
    - BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
    - The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
    posted 12-21-06 10:19 AM EDT (US)     55 / 215  
    Actually, Joe, I think it was Maya that lost you the game. They really suck these days. Worse anti-cav capability than Janissaries and Russian Muskets (8 x3 vs cav). Had you invested the same resources into Puma Spearmen (and earlier), Somme's cavalry would've melted.

    Another thing, you obviously scouted his stable. Don't send Macehualtin in alone after you see one. That's just asking for them to be slaughtered.

    Infact, after his Musket/Crossbow force was nearly annihilated, for a long period of time he had nothing but cavalry.
    Next time you're in such a situation, don't get overzealous with Scouts. Get some ~10 Pumas in there (or more). It's alot better for your anti-cav to be doing 60 damage instead of 24, for a very similar price.

    All this said, I was simply shocked at how well those Scouts fought off a Musket/Crossbow and Hussar force. I was then shocked again to see them almost break even with a Veteran Hussar/Cuirassier force (there were what like 5 Hussar survivors, and they were the reinforcements). A very strong strategy, I must say. You just have to find a way to get them out earlier. Somme had too much free time to boom.

    But it is indeed a very viable and strong strategy. And if this (and the Dutch Halberds) doesn't highlight how much impact cavalry pathfinding and footprint issues have on their real world performance, I don't know what can. Statatistically inferior units do so much better due to not suffering from those problems.


    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    posted 12-21-06 10:22 AM EDT (US)     56 / 215  
    I have to say I was scared and yeah some anti cav wouldn't have hurt, but then there would have been less scouts.

    I loved meeting your macehutlains out on their own.


    ESO : Pcfreak8
    "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
    A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
    Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
    posted 12-21-06 05:17 PM EDT (US)     57 / 215  

    Quoted from Ender_Ward:

    Actually, Joe, I think it was Maya that lost you the game. They really suck these days. Worse anti-cav capability than Janissaries and Russian Muskets (8 x3 vs cav). Had you invested the same resources into Puma Spearmen (and earlier), Somme's cavalry would've melted.


    WOW. I had no idea Mayans were now that poor against cavalry. Thanks for pointing this out! I still think of them as the powerhouses that they once were. You've saved me from many future mistakes. Pumas 4 life!

    Quoted from Ender_Ward:

    All this said, I was simply shocked at how well those Scouts fought off a Musket/Crossbow and Hussar force. I was then shocked again to see them almost break even with a Veteran Hussar/Cuirassier force (there were what like 5 Hussar survivors, and they were the reinforcements). A very strong strategy, I must say. You just have to find a way to get them out earlier. Somme had too much free time to boom.


    I agree. Somme's raiding was excellent (way, way above my level of play) and kept the scouts "in the bottle" for a very long time (much longer than I like.) Getting my warchief killed created another delay. But once they came out... oh, I so love that part.

    Quoted from Ender_Ward:

    But it is indeed a very viable and strong strategy. And if this (and the Dutch Halberds) doesn't highlight how much impact cavalry pathfinding and footprint issues have on their real world performance, I don't know what can. Statatistically inferior units do so much better due to not suffering from those problems.


    Thanks! It really helps make the point when the units are also absurd-looking.

    Quoted from somme:

    I loved meeting your macehutlains out on their own.


    A little gift from me to you. Merry Christmas!

    Strategies:
    - BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
    - The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
    posted 12-21-06 06:04 PM EDT (US)     58 / 215  
    I love this strat, its so delightfully absurd, although only one person has insulted me for doing it and it was one of my teamates in the forum party last weekend lolz, I do love saying the line ph33r meh scouts just before they attack though.
    posted 12-21-06 06:46 PM EDT (US)     59 / 215  

    Quote:

    Thanks for pointing this out! I still think of them as the powerhouses that they once were

    A mayans how I miss your tanky ways, i remember the good old maya rush back in the days when cover mode was still useful

    posted 12-21-06 09:26 PM EDT (US)     60 / 215  
    GREAT STRATEGY!!!
    You totally caught me by surprise with it.

    I dont know if this has already been asked, but do the scouts cost population slots or do they have some kind of a build limit like envoys?

    posted 12-22-06 01:23 AM EDT (US)     61 / 215  
    Great guide and well written!
    I got a few questions as I have not really looked into Adv Scouts because I never realized they could be made from the embassy.

    1.) They are infantry, so doesn’t cannon counter them effectively (assuming you make it to Fortress)? It seems like a few falconets with some heavy infantry meat shield or spies should work since cannon also counter maces.

    2.) I believe the Iroquois aura will increase the scouts hit points. Does anyone know this for sure? I know its not an Iroquois strategy your working on, but it may make up for the slower economic bonus.

    3.) As a native, is there any way to counter this besides a hard and fast rush? Once they get going, it seems hard to counter. No spies, no cannon, and cavalry have that path finding issue…

    4.) If you’re original TP is destroyed, can you still build Native Embassies or will you need to claim another Native TP?

    You also missed one very important obvious point, with that many scouts, you will know what the enemy is making at all times and were the villagers are hiding. I know it is implied, but it would be good to mention.

    Great job…


    Lead, Follow, or Get the Hell out of the way!................CYCLOHEXANE'S FREE GUIDES:

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    posted 12-22-06 06:44 AM EDT (US)     62 / 215  
    1.) They are infantry, so doesn’t cannon counter them effectively (assuming you make it to Fortress)? It seems like a few falconets with some heavy infantry meat shield or spies should work since cannon also counter maces.

    Cannons work fairly well until the scouts swarm them remember scouts are fast and have stealth.

    2.) I believe the Iroquois aura will increase the scouts hit points. Does anyone know this for sure? I know its not an Iroquois strategy your working on, but it may make up for the slower economic bonus.

    There is no reason to suggest otherwise as wc auras work on pets etc and my scouts have the white line around when my wc is near so.

    3.) As a native, is there any way to counter this besides a hard and fast rush? Once they get going, it seems hard to counter. No spies, no cannon, and cavalry have that path finding issue…

    Not really no, scouts are a good li counter so thats out hi does moderatley better but with li back up the scouts win easily, iro's cav is awful so if you get some pumas for the 5 cuir shipment your home free because they have nothing else then and the sioux's best option is axe riders in which the axe rider wins amrginally so throw in the big button jags and a few pumas and there done.

    4.) If you’re original TP is destroyed, can you still build Native Embassies or will you need to claim another Native TP?

    Not sure on this one, my guess is that if you have some up you'll still be able to train scouts but not whatever units came from the native tpand you wouldn't be able to build more, this is just my assumption though.

    You also missed one very important obvious point, with that many scouts, you will know what the enemy is making at all times and were the villagers are hiding. I know it is implied, but it would be good to mention.

    Indeed raiding with scouts is most entertaining hehe.

    posted 12-22-06 09:51 AM EDT (US)     63 / 215  

    Quoted from Destiny_Devil:

    I love this strat, its so delightfully absurd, although only one person has insulted me for doing it and it was one of my teamates in the forum party last weekend lolz


    So do I! Come on, what could be funnier than scouts? I've been insulted numerous times after performing this strat. In fact, just last night I was fortunate enough to receive a very graphic death threat after scout slamming. I tell you, nothing says "good sportsmanship" like a poorly-spelled, profanity-laced death threat!

    Quoted from Gomezd:

    A mayans how I miss your tanky ways, i remember the good old maya rush back in the days when cover mode was still useful


    I know! Things have changed a lot. I was shocked to look at their stats now. Suffice to say I will be a puma man from here on.

    Quoted from urafricanbrother:

    GREAT STRATEGY!!! You totally caught me by surprise with it. I dont know if this has already been asked, but do the scouts cost population slots or do they have some kind of a build limit like envoys?


    Thanks a lot, I enjoyed our game! That was really a gg. The scouts cost 1 pop each, and there is no further build limit for them.

    Quoted from Cyclohexane:

    Great guide and well written!
    I got a few questions as I have not really looked into Adv Scouts because I never realized they could be made from the embassy.


    Thanks, I really appreciate it! You've asked 4 excellent questions, so I want to hit each one.

    Quoted from Cyclohexane:

    1.) They are infantry, so doesn’t cannon counter them effectively (assuming you make it to Fortress)? It seems like a few falconets with some heavy infantry meat shield or spies should work since cannon also counter maces.


    Great question, so I'd like to put this in the FAQ!

    Quoted from Cyclohexane:

    2.) I believe the Iroquois aura will increase the scouts hit points. Does anyone know this for sure? I know its not an Iroquois strategy your working on, but it may make up for the slower economic bonus.


    I am almost certain that you are right about this. I've in fact strongly considered trying out Iroquois for this, but I'm still very low-level with them. The additional bonus they have is being able to turtle to scouts more easily and being less vulnerable to the decisive rush.

    Quoted from Cyclohexane:

    3.) As a native, is there any way to counter this besides a hard and fast rush? Once they get going, it seems hard to counter. No spies, no cannon, and cavalry have that path finding issue…


    I don't have much for you here -- the rush seems to be best. Pop-wise, cavalry don't even really beat scouts. Once you have 2 market wood upgrades and a wood upgrade from a card, they aren't going to beat them cost-effectively either. Naturally, a scout slammer can also mix in pumas to counter a pure-cav force. Having said that, a well-executed Iroquois FF can at times be challenging to fight against. I have a good recording of how to best approach killing an Iro FF -- I may need to update the game pack if anyone is interested.

    Quoted from Cyclohexane:

    4.) If you’re original TP is destroyed, can you still build Native Embassies or will you need to claim another Native TP?


    Yes, you can still make Embassies. I've lost my native TP before and I can still make Native Embassies no problem.

    Quoted from Cyclohexane:

    You also missed one very important obvious point, with that many scouts, you will know what the enemy is making at all times and were the villagers are hiding. I know it is implied, but it would be good to mention.


    You're absolutely right -- 22 line of sight and stealth is nothing to sneeze at! I'm very hyped up about their combat ability, but I don't want to ignore their other advantages. Even one scout parked out by where the opponent is making his military is an enormous advantage. I can't count how many times I've walked some scouts out and thought, "Oh wow, he's making those? Let's get some extra counters going." When I get a little time, I'll add a couple paragraphs on line of sight and stealth. Thanks for suggesting this!

    Strategies:
    - BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
    - The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
    posted 12-22-06 12:50 PM EDT (US)     64 / 215  
    I’m no Iroquois expert but I have been beaten by them a few times to learn a few things and I know the rock, paper, scissors aspect of the game very well.

    As Iroquois, the scouts do not have to come out immediately. The Iroquois can turtle to Fortress, send the Iroquois Woodworking card in Age 3. Then break out with the guys. Having them means you know what the enemy is doing at all times and map control becomes less important. As a side note, all Natives can currently research Age 4 wood working upgrades in Age 3. I'm pretty sure this is a bug, but for now, this card is worth 500 Food and 785 gold in Fortress and grants 60% wood collection (1285 resource shipment and means you don't need to build a market immediately)! Lumber Ceremony = 100 Food 150 Gold, Forest People Ceremony = 150 Food and 235 Gold, and Forest Spirit Ceremony = 250 Food and 400 Gold.

    Even if the bug gets fixed, the card is worth 250 Food and 385 Gold in fortress (plus no need for a market early game - great for that first embassy). That combined with slightly stronger scouts (HC aura), it sounds viable for all Natives. If the bug does get fixed, this HC card does not sound to appealing compared to a resource increase shipment, but for now...

    Here is something else to chew on, imagine the Sioux Steath WC combined with these guys. A fast invisible raiding force that does not fall apart like those weak and almost useless Tashunke Prowlers.

    Here is a few more interesting tip bits: The Iroquois WC aura grants +36 hit points for a total of 216 (not bad, a couple of extra hits). I also verified that after the TP is destroyed Native Embassies can still be built but there is a build limit of 3.

    Based on what I just learned, I am going to have to update my Reference Guide with a few notes...


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    [This message has been edited by Cyclohexane (edited 12-22-2006 @ 01:22 PM).]

    posted 12-22-06 03:34 PM EDT (US)     65 / 215  
    The Aura definitely does affect (effect?) them.

    Also:

    Iro can make these little buggers even nastier.

    The Native Warrior Combat (Age3 card) + 25% HP/Attack works on them.

    Also all of the +15% Infantry Upgrade cards work too i.e. Infantry Attack, Infantry HP, Infantry Combat, Team Scout Infantry (+10% HP and + 4 LOS) and even the Infantry Breastplate Upgrade from the New Ways (Arsenal) card.

    A fully upgrade one of these suckers appears to be 270 HP(+ Aura Effect = 309 HP!!!!)/17r6 Siege/17 Hand Attack/5.5 speed/ .10 range resist/26 LOS!

    It's a lot of cards, but it can add up.


    If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.

    [This message has been edited by donkee (edited 12-22-2006 @ 04:23 PM).]

    posted 12-22-06 03:40 PM EDT (US)     66 / 215  
    Good news is - I found the card

    Bad news is - it's a lvl 25 card, so not for me


    TORDENSKIOLD(1690-1720)

    During the Great Nordic War (1700-1720), he was commander of the danish navy, which defeaded the swedish army at Kristiania (modern Oslo). After the war, he was killed in a duel on Nov. 12, 1720 just outside Hamburg, Germany, during a travel to England.

    ESO: TORDENSKIOLD
    posted 12-22-06 03:53 PM EDT (US)     67 / 215  

    Quoted from Cyclohexane:

    As Iroquois, the scouts do not have to come out immediately. The Iroquois can turtle to Fortress, send the Iroquois Woodworking card in Age 3.


    Absolutely. A determined, sturdy Iroquois turtle can be insanely hard to crack. But if the turtle is also spamming scouts at you, chopping well-guarded wood at +60%, and getting food from "Agrarian Ways" farms? Wow. Right now, I can only imagine such things, but I think it could be very tough to stop.

    Since there is always a down side to any strat, I'll point this one out -- FF always causes your eco to suffer a bit. Scouts, for all their positives, require a huge amount of eco power to put on the field. So you would see some slowdown there. However, you're now supplementing your army with forest prowlers and mantlets instead of kanya horsemen and aennas.

    Quoted from Cyclohexane:

    As a side note, all Natives can currently research Age 4 wood working upgrades in Age 3.


    My understanding is that the major upgrades are supposed to be available in fortress (not including the deforestation mega-upgrade.) My understanding is that Lumber Ceremony is Discovery, Forest People Ceremony is Colonial, and Forest Spirit Ceremony is Fortress. It's similar to how the Euro civs also have all their wood upgrades available by fortress. So unless I am missing something crucial, this doesn't seem like a bug, but simply that the intent is that all civs can get +60% wood rate by fortress.

    This woodworking card is what's really special, though. It's not as stunning of a card as Agrarian Ways, for example, but still a very nice one!

    Quoted from Cyclohexane:

    Here is something else to chew on, imagine the Sioux Steath WC combined with these guys. A fast invisible raiding force that does not fall apart like those weak and almost useless Tashunke Prowlers.


    Sounds great! The only flaw with that is that scouts move much more slowly in stealth mode. I haven't played with the Sioux Warchief's stealth ability, but does he still move quickly in stealth? And would he boost the scouts enough to make them seem "fast"?

    Quoted from Cyclohexane:

    Here is a few more interesting tip bits: The Iroquois WC aura grants +36 hit points for a total of 216 (not bad, a couple of extra hits). I also verified that after the TP is destroyed Native Embassies can still be built but there is a build limit of 3.


    That is almost frightening, isn't it? I think that if you can simply keep your Warchief alive, you've made the scouts MUCH scarier than before. One of the things that bring Iroquois down to Earth is that their colonial units aren't terribly outstanding. With their Warchief around, their ho-hum colonial units become a force to be reckoned with.

    Now imagine if you take what is (in my opinion) the best all-around colonial native unit in the game (the advanced scout) and give him the boost you just mentioned. It's scary stuff!


    Strategies:
    - BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
    - The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
    posted 12-22-06 04:13 PM EDT (US)     68 / 215  
    posted 12-22-06 04:49 PM EDT (US)     69 / 215  

    Quoted from donkee:

    The Native Warrior Combat (Age3 card) + 25% HP/Attack works on them.

    Also all of the +15% Infantry Upgrade cards work too i.e. Infantry Attack, Infantry HP, Infantry Combat, Team Scout Infantry (+10% HP and + 4 LOS) and even the Infantry Breastplate Upgrade from the New Ways (Arsenal) card.

    A fully upgrade one of these suckers appears to be 270 HP(+ Aura Effect = 306 HP!!!!)/17r6 Siege/17 Hand Attack/5.5 speed/ .10 range resist/26 LOS!


    Wow, nice research donkee! That is totally amazing! It is of course 5 cards, but hey, nothing good ever comes cheap. Impressive find.

    The tragedy for the poor scout is that the attack cards don't do much thanks to his horrible base attack. What card can possibly stand up to the 200% modifier we got from Advanced Scouts? So I'd probably trim "infantry attack".

    Thanks a lot for looking all that up. It's very cool and has gotten me thinking.

    Quoted from Tordenskiold:

    Good news is - I found the card. Bad news is - it's a lvl 25 card, so not for me


    Yeah, I know what you mean about the leveling! I'm sort of in the same boat since I'd love to try this with Iro but I've got no levels. I may just go ahead and do a few XP games to get myself there a little bit faster. A while back I got some great tips from the guys on the forum about how to set up XP games, and it was quite helpful.

    Quoted from Destiny_Devil:

    Indeed it is joe, can you guess what natives I'm going to level after aztecs hehe.


    What, you grow tired of the macehualtins? 8 attack not doing it for you?

    Strategies:
    - BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
    - The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style

    [This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 12-22-2006 @ 04:51 PM).]

    posted 12-22-06 05:16 PM EDT (US)     70 / 215  
    In the future I always put the 5 spy card in my decks v. natives rofl.
    posted 12-22-06 05:26 PM EDT (US)     71 / 215  
    Wow this got long fast.

    Not sure if this has been touched on, but any card that affects natives affects the scouts. (well thats obvious)

    So I messed around on Carolina with the Iroquois. Cherokee speed tech makes em 6.6, and the 25% less resources card drops em down to 67 wood apiece, and the +15% HP and Damage affects them as well. (I beat the computer too fast to get a good look at the scouts HP and Damage after that).

    With the Iroquois if fits well. Spam Aennas and Scouts in Colonial. BB and ship your hawks. Keep the WC close and you rule!

    I suggest keeping Kinship ties in your deck with this strat as in IV you can spam villies outta your embassies as well.

    (now the Sioux have a -85% native train speed card, that would be insta scouts)

    GJ Joe. I never really thought that their wouldnt be too many hard counters (cept spies). Even then your scouts are cheaper and can come outta three embassies vs. one church. Keep the church offline and its OP Agents all over again!

    posted 12-22-06 07:09 PM EDT (US)     72 / 215  
    hm some upgrades so affect them eh, I'll have to look into this.

    and unfortunatley no joe, my op 8 attack slingers haven't been working they're magic recently.

    [This message has been edited by Destiny_Devil (edited 12-22-2006 @ 07:10 PM).]

    posted 12-23-06 09:17 AM EDT (US)     73 / 215  
    I found this strat to be very viable with the Sioux too.

    I try it when I start off with a 200w start, I gather 50w quickly or get a treasure then build a TP. I then age normally with 15/16 vills depending on the map, keep about 4,5 on food and rest on wood. I gather the 400w which lets me build a TP, an embassy and soon I'll have a WH/Corral depending on what the opposition is massing sending 4 AR and then cetans and THEN advanced scout. It helps lay off any rushes. I also keep all 3 wood upgrades in my deck, (all 20% upgrades AFAI). If it's all working good, just stay in colonial and overwhelm them with those little troopers. I like the addition of instant scouts to the Sioux. Will have to try it out. The only downside to this though is you can't upgrade them to legendary scouts And only really sticks through to colonial. Good stuff Beatnik Joe!


    Previously known as MoNo Ager
    posted 12-23-06 10:14 AM EDT (US)     74 / 215  
    Your strategy is so great, and your post so well written, that it deserved a place in my own sig!

    ESO - Walker

    >> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
    "Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

    Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
    posted 12-23-06 10:51 AM EDT (US)     75 / 215  
    With the Sioux faster native build card they come out almost instantly. Less than a second.

    Are scouts like this viable past colonial?

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