Well written, Well thought out, well, well done!

I love Aztecs too, but most their military sucks.

Maces - Expensive strelets who don't do their cost credit

Arrow knights - Hit 13 on a cannon age 3. 12.5 really but it'd get rounded

Coyote Runners - 18 attack for a Cavalry unit, riiighht.

Skull Knights - Too slow to do anything

The rest of their troops are OK but another problem:

Pop - Only 91 spaces for military, 99 vils and 10 WP

Solutions in my own opinion

Maces - +2 attack and siege

Arrow knights Attack classed as bombard and bonus reduced to 3x

Coyote Runners - Improve attack

Skulls - Dunno, when they get there, IF they get there they rock but a slight speed increase would do little harm

Pop - War priests, no pop cost?

Maces - Expensive strelets who don't do their cost credit

I agree with this macs suck

Arrow knights - Hit 13 on a cannon age 3. 12.5 really but it'd get rounded

Actually it doesn't get rounded, the ui would show it but it still counts the .5

Coyote Runners - 18 attack for a Cavalry unit, riiighht.

Remember they're only 1 pop and are much cheaper than cavalry.

Skull Knights - Too slow to do anything

Get Creative, skull knights aren't meant for massing just sprinkle some in your army they'll do fine

The rest of their troops are OK but another problem:

Pop - Only 91 spaces for military, 99 vils and 10 WP

Solutions in my own opinion

Maces - +2 attack and siege

I agree with this, macs simply suck and its making aztec vs otto almost unplayable.

Arrow knights Attack classed as bombard and bonus reduced to 3x

arrow knights are fine, they are a very specialised unit they do they're job well but don't do well at anything else. Leave Arrow knights as they are

Coyote Runners - Improve attack

Coyote runners are fine, remember they only cost 1 pop and about half the cost of cav and also I point I forgot before they'r counters don't get as large a bonus against them as melee cav.

Skulls - Dunno, when they get there, IF they get there they rock but a slight speed increase would do little harm

Skull Knights with speed would be a little op they're already uber strong they are fine.

Pop - War priests, no pop cost?

I think I agree with this one wp shouldn't cost pop but if they don't I also think they're military capabilities should be lowered, it just makes sense.

Hey Joe. Congratulations. Your strat has made it. Just wait abit more, and it'll be referred to with the same "love" as that certain Ottoman strat.

Nice strat.

I think I came up against an early version of this, but you used the market xp big button for lots of shipments which you don't say to do in this strat. I think I still have the rec of it actually.

hm thats given me an idea to the hidenpeter!

Looks very good. I needed a good strat for the aztecs as I suck with them.

Very impressive(not to mention hilarious).Hope to see more strats like this.

Russia should counter this strat fairly well. They have a wood trickle card and 400W poli that lets them get a Church early.
Also the Russian Muskets are pretty close to Scouts (except in speed) and cost less VS to generate resources to build (57F + 19G v 90W).
Add a few Spies to the Muskets and you have a nice Scout killing force, build/send a few Cossacks to chase the Scouts down if they run.
Russians could even use the Fast Infantry card and combined w/2 BH can really churn out the Muskets fast (roughly 10 every 15 secs).

Quoted from JonSlaught:

Ooohhhh, another nice couple of improvements! It seems like the other natives have some very viable options with these guys.

Quoted from JonSlaught:

Thanks! It's definitely true that in low numbers with a nicely mixed force, you can overcome some spies. They still present quite the danger if someone manages to spam them though! It pays to mix up your forces and, as you say, keep that church offline as much as possible. Fortunately, spies do not do well against other types of units.

Quoted from George_uk:

Man, sounds like a nice build order. Now do you also make a little time for gathering up what you need for the wood upgrades from the market? If you don't, that might be the one thing I would suggest trying out, since that's a 40% wood upgrade for only 250f, 385g + the 100 wood for the market. That along with your 60% from cards is... very scary.

Quoted from Just a player:

Now this is an honor, sir! You've made my Christmas!

Quoted from JonSlaught:

Yeah, there's a still a great place for scouts when your opponent is in fortress. If a native FF'd over you, and if you have stayed on top of him with raiding, your scouts can do an excellent job. Even in fortress, they still have no units that will truly "counter" your scouts. As you stayed in colonial, you should have a much better economy and hopefully spent a lot of time harrassing them as well. This should allow you to kill each shipment as it emerges.

When I am in fortress, I still frequently use them as shock troops to destroy wakina rifles, elite cetans, forest prowlers, mantlets, etc. Since they are immune to the effects of anti-cav, they injure and shut these units down more effectively than coyotes can. I'm transitioning into Eagle Runner Knight \ Arrow Knight at this point, and in industrial I usually make only more reasonable numbers of scouts.

Quoted from Jozzy:

Thanks a lot! The military situation can be a little rough in colonial, which is what I'm really trying to "patch over" with the Scouts. There is hope down the road though! Eagle Runner Knights with the 3 knight upgrades + the Eagle Runner Merc Card + attack dance are incredible fighters. Get them backed up with Arrow Knights and other troops as needed and the situation really turns around. If backed by an Agrarian Ways and Chinampa-upgraded static econ, you can really make up for any shortcomings in colonial.

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

LOL... uh oh. I'll definitely need to head over and check this out.

Quoted from Lord_Richjp:

Thanks, you were really paying attention there! I did indeed play the market big button in one of my experimental builds. It worked pretty well, but it just wound up being too slow for a very serious Sioux rush. I didn't mind having all those spare shipments though, and I still think about that tech often! Maybe someday I'll work it back in.

Quoted from The Banisher:

Thanks a lot, I hope you find it entertaining (and maybe even effective.)

Quoted from Garlef:

Yeah, those ideas are all quite solid. Spies do a great job countering Scouts and Aztecs do have more-than-average trouble with heavy infantry. As Euro players begin learning what to expect, I think it'll be important to have plans to adjust right back with counter strats. Against well-read Euro players, solid troop mixes, scouting for a church, watching gold activity, etc. all become important.

[This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 12-24-2006 @ 11:17 AM).]

Sorry I was mistaken, instead of 3 20% card upgrades for wood its 2 20% and 1 15% (oh noe!). It's really good to throw in a couple of cetans / war clubs to help with spies / siege. One of the mistakes I've seen in recs of this are just pure spies and losing considerable amounts to spies. It doesn't hurt THAT much to build a WH later on and add a few normal troops.

Also can I ask, what is a hard counter to spies? Are they classed as heavy infantry or what? I heard they were merc type 2. What is the heavy counter for that? Do they have a heavy counter? So many questions!

Yeah, I can't find spies in the proto file. Whats the deal with them.

Spies: Infantry, HandInfantry, CanSeeStealth, MercType2
Hit points: 150
LOS: 28
Speed: 6.25 (much faster than an advanced scout)
Armor: 20% ranged
Villager Seconds = 208 (assuming no upgrades and not Dutch)
Melee Damage: 10
Melee Damage vs. Mercenary: 100
Melee Damage vs. Hero: 200
Melee Damage vs. Native Warrior: 60
Siege Damage: 20 (also 20 in cover mode so a huge bug).

Agent (Age 2) Shipment increases hit points +50% (225) and +15 LOS (43 LOS is best in the game, even see more than a monitor).

Assassin (Age 3) Shipment grants +100% dam to units, and x5 damage to War Chiefs, Explorers, and mercs. I believe this is an amazing 120 damage to native scouts (if scouts are considered units, never tested in game and not sure if still 60 since no increase to Native Warriors is listed).

*Spies also auto upgrade hit points in industrial (187) and imperial (262).

Advanced Scout: Infantry, Hand Infantry, CanSeeStealth, Native Warrior
Stats are above.
Villager Seconds: 180 (assuming no upgrades)

They are slower, slightly cheaper (about the same amount of villager seconds), only have 30 more hit points (unless they send agent card then they are weaker), do slightly more damage to all units (15 opposed to spies with 10 - but assasins get 20 to all), less ranged armor (10% versus spies with 20%), do less siege (especially with cover mode bug still in full effect), lower line of sight, cost a shipment, get no amazing bonuses to any unit, and require more wood to start building (250 for TP and 100 for Embassy opposed to 200 for Church - of course a native TP is much more useful).

They are basically the same unit as far as counters go except the natives really do not have a hard counter against spies (with the exception of Dog Soldiers and Light Cannon). It is a good thing they can only be made from 1 building and that is the main difference, you can build up to 3 Native Embassies and out spam them. Especially Sioux with Native American Warriors (-25% cost) and Black Arrow (3 second spawn time), but both of these are Age 3 cards.

It seems like all European armies should have spies in them against the Natives, especially against the likes of cetan bows that also do not get any bonus and just got hit hard with the nerf stick.

[This message has been edited by Cyclohexane (edited 12-27-2006 @ 07:44 PM).]

That +30 HP and 5 Damage (besides the fact its more acessible) is what makes Native Scouts so good. I doubt Spies could even get close to their effectiveness in Colonial or in Fortress age.

EDIT: Agents, on other note, might do well though. Thinking about it, less damage, more HP but with more speed and an isanne LOS might be worth it. Anyway, unlike trees, gold ends quickly, but I still think Scouts > Spies/Agents.

[This message has been edited by Just a player (edited 12-27-2006 @ 08:23 PM).]

Gold does not end so quickly for the Dutch or a silk road Ottoman (of course they get assassins). It also depends on the map, some maps are gold heavy, some are tree heavy, and vice versa when talking about certain maps lacking trees or gold.

Their hit points are also very similar when considering ranged damage.

But maybe your are right and that slight difference is all it takes because you really cannot be spamming these guys out of 2 Embassies in Colonial.

The European can just as easily spam spies. Spies and especially spies upgraded to agents sound like they will still be very useful against Native civilizations (even if they do not go advanced scout) for the same reasons (not having a direct counter).

[This message has been edited by Cyclohexane (edited 12-28-2006 @ 00:20 AM).]

so what counters spies then, hand infantry suggests classic light infantry, and artillery.

Quoted from George_uk:

Absolutely right, especially against Euro players. If you're facing off with a Euro, I believe that it's essential to not go too crazy with only scouts. If you also get a pipeline of conventional troops going, you can work to pick off any spies he might have included in his army.

Quoted from Cyclohexane:

I snipped most of it, but this is excellent analysis. One additional point to consider here is that during colonial, only the placer mines upgrade is available for gold gathering improvement. This means that at most you can get a 10% improvement on gold gathering. This gives us a colonial rate of .6 * 1.1 = .66. Wood can be upgraded twice for 20% each time, giving us .5 * 1.4 = .7

This means that at max upgrade spies cost 125 gold / .66 = 189 villager-seconds. Scouts cost 90 wood / .7 = 128.6 villager seconds. This makes spies almost 50% more expensive once those upgrades are cracking. I think that illustrates why spies are more difficult to spam for the non-Dutch civs. Head to head, spies of course win over scouts -- I'm really just comparing generic spammability.

Quoted from Just a player:

I agree. Obviously in direct battle spies beat scouts quite handily. But spies can't be used to counter the native arsenal cost-effectively all by themselves (as scouts can.) I think spies would clearly lose to lots of native cavalry, for example, and a full-steam scout assault does not.

Quoted from Cyclohexane:

Yeah, this is a good point -- it takes quite an econ to keep 2 native embassies busy. I think that the cost difference that I outlined above is probably a bigger reason. This strat calls for the market upgrades, which make scouts at least 50% cheaper than spies. Clearly spies work great for killing scouts, but I believe they're not as dangerous of an anti-native catch-all.

I wonder if Dutch are perhaps the exception though? Scary.

Quoted from Destiny_Devil:

In my opinion, cavalry.

[This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 12-28-2006 @ 09:13 AM).]

that makes no sense though joe, hand infantry usually counters cavalry, rods, pikes, haklbs and so forth. damn you ES for making the counter system so confusing all of a sudden.

With all the upgrades with Sioux it's just crazy, 20%x2, 15%x1 cards and all the market upgrades. With 30 vills on wood, you can pretty much make 10 scouts (from 2 embassies) followed straight by another 10 ... and another 10....and so on. It's crazy, I think once you've survived to that level, you've pretty much won. I like to advance to fortress too and send the cool native cards that Sioux get.

The question is, which native can perform this the best?

very interesting strat

but i was even more impressed by the way it was worded

Quote:

i could read this with a slight smile on my face, good stuff

Quote:

Actually, no. Mortars have base LOS of 44. Given the Portuguese Rangefinding card, LOS for mortars = 54!
Monitors are 38 LOS (though long shot goes up to 100 range).
So Agents have 2nd best LOS in game.

Add gunner's quadrant tech from arsenal... 60 LOS for Rangefinding boosted Portuguese Mortars... you could see the entire map with ~10 of them.

I just thought... Sioux could make these things as fast as cav. With Warchief that's 20%, so 5.5*1.2=6.6, and then they have a card that I think effects all infantry giving them 10 % speed (It might only effect sioux infantry) 6.6 + (5.5 *.1) = 7.15, faster than a hussar, and Spies.

Quoted from Destiny_Devil:

Here is a few examples:
Pikeman: HandInfantry, Pikeman, Infantry, HeavyInfantry
Musketeer: GunpowderTrooper, Infantry, HeavyInfantry, RangedInfantry
Zapotec Lightning Warrior: Infantry, Native Warrior, Heavy Infantry, Hand Infantry

It is the Heavy Infantry that allows light infantry (traditional light infantry like skirmishers (not abstract light infantry like Coyote Runners and Eagle Knights) a bonus. Therefore, skirmisher type units will not receive a bonus towards spies but will towards all heavy infantry. Since spies have ranged resists, heavy infantry will actually do better against them once they are close (and they are fast so assume they will get close).

My guide includes all of the unit description information (hand infantry, ranged infantry, etc.) but I have to give the credit to MNBob for finding that out going through the programming. My skills are limited to organization, deciphering the math formulas from trends, and reading the proto file. Although all of this, including my guide and all of MNBobs charts, should be supplied by ES instead of depending on the fan base which is then ignored for balance changes.

Quoted from ZION_CDawg:

Good point, I forgot about Mortars. However, I wouldn’t use a Mortar as a scout. Of course I wouldn’t scout with a Monitor alone either.
You also have to factor in that an agent can go stealth and have this huge LOS without being detected.

Quoted from Lord_Richjp:

Your right, they can. However it requires an additional card that must be spent and it can be argued it is not worth it until late game since resource gathering rate cards (or price reduction such as Native American Warriors) may be more beneficial to actually be able to spam them (opposed to less scouts that are slightly faster).

By the way, the WC aura affects speed after all other bonuses have been included. For example, I researched the Cherokee +20% Native Warrior speed tech, sent the Windrunner card (+10%) and then ran with the War Chief. The effect was 8.58 speed.

5.5 * 1.1 (10% bonus) = 6.05
6.05 * 1.2 (WC 20%) = 7.26

Or alternately with Cherokee War Dance Technology and Windrunner:
5.5 * 1.3 (10% + 20%) = 7.15 (no WC)
7.15 * 1.2 (WC 20%) = 8.58 (4.29 in Stealth!)

Talk about a raiding force! This is the fastest stealth unit in the game (of course another card would be required to put the Sioux WC in stealth). Always get Cherokee as the first Native TP if they are available.

7.15 * 1.2 (WC 20%) = 8.58!!!

Lol the warchief will slow them down!

lol for a guy with just pants and war paint he sure is awesome.

p.s. george want a game now?

ok

meet you on there at half past