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Topic Subject: The New Ottoman Way (aka; Eureka! I have the answer to natives!)
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posted 01-03-07 04:27 AM EDT (US)   
(NOTE: replays will be posted as games against good players get recorded.)

First replay available:
Ender_Ward [Ottomans] vs Karu [Iroquois] on Saguenay.

(NOTE 2: Credit goes to Joe Beatnick for highlighting a major native civ weakness.)

Fellow Ottoman players, I am here to lift your spirits, to restore hope and reclaim our rightful place on the foodchain, above the pesky natives that trouble us. And shall trouble us, no more!

We can't fight Iroquois, Sioux and Aztec (ISA) rushes with Janissaries. We can't fight them (effectively) with Hussars either. There end our options from 200 wood production centers.
We require Abus Guns. But, here lies our problem. The production center for this unit is an expensive 300 wood, they train very slowly, require alot of pop space and cost mostly gold, which early on is hard to come by. To make things even worse, Abus Guns are extremely vulnerable to melee cavalry and even melee infantry units. Hell early on, when we have so few of them, they even die to other light and heavy infantry that outnumbers our Abus three to one.

The last few days I've struggled with native rushes, particularly Iroquois ones, which hit you before you even trained your first batch of 5 Jans out of the Barracks, far from actually having Abus Guns. I've won some, lost some. I've wrecked my brain as to how to resolve this seemingly hopeless situation.
And I've come up with the answer. Stop trying to make Abus Guns.

But we MUST use Abus Guns to survive! Or do we?

Remember my Inexhaustible Ottoman Rush (IOR)? If you don't, look it up, 'cause it's an integral part of this new strategy. IOR's main feature was bypassing the weakness of the Ottoman economy. Circumventing the inability to grow our economy any faster than the slow as hell TC production rate allowed.

Well, let's bypass our reliance on Abus Guns. Let's circumvent the expensive production center. Let's avoid the insane cost. Let's avoid the slow as hell train time. Let's avoid the extreme vulnerability to melee cavalry. Let's remove the population requirement problem entirely.
Ah ... yes, that last one is a major clue.

Let's fight fire with fire.

Let's use Native Allies.

Why? Because Sioux, Iroquois and Aztec don't have Spies. Thus, they lack the very hard counter that makes Native Ally usage useless against other European civs.

Just look at the options that open up to us:

Cree Trackers
Cherokee Riflemen
Klamath Riflemen
Tupi Blackwood Archers (aka, Super Cetans)
Seminole Bowmen
Inca Bolas Warriors
Navaho Riflemen
Blowgun Warriors/Ambushers
Huron Mantlets

Those are the light infantry. Even the worst of these units are more cost effective than Abus Guns. All train faster. All come from a cheaper* production center. And none require pop space.
But more importantly, they buy us TIME.
Time to get our economy rolling. Time to send our shipments. Time to eventually get our real powerhouse, Abus Guns, out in a much more secure environment and in much greater numbers.

The native trade post that produces these units can (and should be) built before reaching Colonial. That means no Iroquois rush will catch you with your pants down again.

Using ATP (on maps with XP trade posts), you reduce the cost of this production center to a mere 150 wood. Half of an artillery foundary. And if ever destroyed, becomes easy and cheap to rebuild.

By using native allies, we can quickly reinforce our locally trained troops by using the Native Treaties card.

We get acces to cool techs like -building cost, gather rate improvements, settler shipments/training, unit HP/attack improvements and many more.

And by saving on pop space requirement, we are able to pour more wood into troops or TPs (on appropriate maps) and sooner.

Even the non-light infantry natives are good deals (except Maya Spearmen, nerfed into uselessness). Those with good melee attack can overwhelm the weaker native light infantry (Macehualtin/Aenna) in the same manner that Halberds and Rodeleros do. They're stil available earlier than Abus Guns, train faster and can be reinfored via Native Treaties, and stil do a good job of buying time.
For example, by using cavalry natives, you can kill light infantry while using your TC/5 Jan fire to kill the likes of Tomahawks or War Clubs.
And even Huron Mantlets can soak alot of damage (and deal decent damage back), which once again, buys us TIME.

So now that you get the general idea, here are a few example build orders that will demonstrate the plan of action.

Section 1: Maps with a trade route

Game start:
Scout with the explorer, you're looking for the native TPs. Try to take easy treasure, but attempt to keep him as high to max HP as possible, and do try to avoid encounters with the native Warchiefs and converted guardians. If under attack by these, run back to your base. It's very important to keep your explorer alive.
Build ONE house with your starting wood.

1st card: ATP

Have your explorer in place at an XP trade post by the time ATP arrives. Try for it to be a remote one (unless guarded by an Iroquois War Hut). The one near your base cannot be taken. After you build this XP TP, get your explorer to a native trade post of your choice. If you did not waste wood in the beginning, you'll be able to build a second ATP right away (because Ottomans always start with atleast 400 wood).
As you are aging up, gather either food and wood or food and gold, whichever is appropriate to the cost of your native allies.
When you've aged to Colonial with the 400 wood politician:
200 wood goes to researching stagecoach on your XP ATP.
200 wood goes to starting native ally production.

2nd card: 700 resource crate.

(appropriate to the native ally cost, but it is usually going to be wood)

Now max out on the number of NA units you can train at your single TP. Just as you are about to finish training your last batch:

3rd card: Native Treaties

This will put you over the limit of your single trade post, giving you a force that will at the very least hold off or at best utterly destroy any ISA rush.

4th card: Silk Road.

Because by now your stagecoach has finished researching, and you've set your single ATP to wood. This will allow you to finance the rest of the trade route.

5th card: 600 wood.

This will allow you to claim any additional native TPs. Either to increase your build limit, or gain additional reinforcements from the Native Treaties card you sent earlier.

Now that your trade route is up and functioning, and you have an excellent defense force, set your trade route fully to wood and build:

Artillery foundary

6th card: 600 resource crate or unused 700 crate.

Send either the 600 or 700 food or gold crate that you haven't used yet, and set your trade route to the opposite resource. This will get you to Fortress, fast. You want to do this because after a failed rush, most natives (especially Iroquois) will attempt to hit Fortress and start shipment spamming (especially beware of the Iroquois National Unity based spam).

Once in Fortress, the card list and actions are up to you. But I recommend sending the -25% cost for native warriors (if you got good ones on the map) and upgrading your survivors.

NOTE: if your opponent persists in fighting you in Colonial, continue to fight back powered by your trade route and enhanced shipment crates. Even the most expensive, wood heavy natives (think Cree) become affordable thanks to a working, Silk Road enhanced trade route. You will then get Jan/Abus out later.

Section 2: Maps without a trade route
There are two options here. Hispanola, where you can do a moderate fish boom to get the food for your Blowgunner spam, and Orinoco/Painted Desert/Bayou.

On Bayou
3 villagers
700 wood
Native Treaties
4 villagers
(research the Cherokee tech that sends 4 villagers, think of it as stagecoach lite)
600 wood
700 food
700 gold

Use the starting wood on two TPs (different tribes por favor!) and a house. Use the 400 age up wood as you see fit. I recommend building a Barracks against Sioux, who have strong cavalry, against which you will likely need some Jan protection (keep the 5 Jans card in your deck for emergency).
This WILL be a tougher fight than on a trade route map, but you do get two very good native allies, one of which has excellent seige capability after an upgrade.

On Orinoco:
If stuck with only Lightning Warriors, use them as anti-cav defense against Abus Guns. Yes, you will need to get early Abus. But thankfully, in this case you have the wood.
3 villagers
700 gold
Native Treaties
700 wood
600 gold

On Painted Desert:
Capitalism (gold trickle 1.25)
700 wood
Native Treaties
4 villagers
(when income allows, research the Apache tech that gives a damage bonus versus villagers, it'll turn them into excellent raiders, and later in Fortress, once you've sent the Irregulars card, will turn them into sheer monster villager killing machines)
600 wood
700 food
700 gold
This is actually a very good combination. Not only do you get sturdy (and stealthy) light infantry, but you also get the anti-cav protection for them, thereby avoiding having to build an early Barracks.

Ofcourse because no strategy is perfect, we have the "trouble maps".
Rockies - where 99% of the time Commanche appear instead of Chayenne.
Patagonia - on which are simply are no natives.
On these maps we have no choice but to employ old defensive techniques. Like I said, no strategy is perfect.

And there you have it. I hope it helps all the fellow Ottomans out there to finally end the frustration we've been suffering in our dependance on Abus Guns. I set thee free!

But remember, don't use this against other Europeans. 'Cause ... Spies!

(yes, you knew it was coming )
Important addition:
If the native TP you use is too far away from your base, build a Native Embassy near your base. That way you can train the native allies locally, right where you need them.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 01-06-2007 @ 01:01 AM).]

posted 01-05-07 11:25 AM EDT (US)     26 / 36  
Maybe some jalous moderator?
posted 01-05-07 04:14 PM EDT (US)     27 / 36  
Very interesting strategy Ender_Ward. I would try this, but I don't play multiplayer properly very often, and I play as Spain rather than Ottomans usually. But, it's a very interesting idea.

Still, one question I do have: native allies can be very powerful, yes, I agree, but when facing a good opponent playing as the Aztecs, fighting all of those tough Aztec infantry, particularly the Aztec Knights from the Nobles Hut.......are you sure that native allies would fare so well against them?

I mean, Cherokee Riflemen, they'd be an effective force, but my idea would be to create several army groups: One normal infantry(Musketeers, Pikemen, Skirmishers, etc), one normal cavalry, and one group consisting of my explorer with lots of native allies and possibly some units from the Saloon building. That would be the most effective solution to fighting natives, I think.

Basically, this third group, which is your explorer + loads of natives + saloon units when you get them, should be used as a "mobile defence" force. Attacking small enemy armies, you can keep the enemy at bay and catch them off guard until your main armies are ready, and then attack with all three armies, and march to victory.

Would that be an effective strategy?

Neither the pure land nor hell exists outside oneself; both lie only within one’s own heart. Awakened to this, one is called a Buddha; deluded about it, one is called an ordinary person. The Lotus Sutra reveals this truth, and one who embraces the Lotus Sutra will realize that hell is itself the Land of Tranquil Light.
- Nichiren Daishonin
posted 01-05-07 04:45 PM EDT (US)     28 / 36  
^^ this strat does not pertain to single player very much...

Anyway nice strat ender u always seem to find a silver lining with ottoman.

Do u have and times that you could assosiate with how many natives you have at what time? Just a guess cause i know that different natives have different costs.

posted 01-05-07 06:14 PM EDT (US)     29 / 36  
Are you sure huron mantlets are light infantry? :S

Thanks to all those that signed the petition to get me unbanned here.
And special thanks to smashnbash for making it.
posted 01-05-07 08:02 PM EDT (US)     30 / 36  
Well I actually thought I had a game demonstrating this strat that I wanted to post. I totally stop an Iroquois rush by what used to be a 2350 player in vanilla and who is now 2100 in TWC.
I end up losing the late late game (both in Industrial) due to some very bad mistakes, but his rush was stopped cold, and I actually almost had him several times afterward (but again, a few stupid mistakes, such as sending in 5 Falconets but forgetting to also send in the meatshield, can snatch defeat right out of the jaws of victory), but, the early part of the strat works wonderfully.
Using the 13 Klamath you can get right beside your base on Northwest Territories, I basically made his 4:30 rush pointless and after a while forced him to FF.
But the game didn't get recorded.

Yes, they are light infantry* (courtecy of MNBob as always):
HP: 250
Resistance: Ranged-40%
Cost: W-50, G-100
Unit Type: NativeWarrior, SiegeTrooper, RangedInfantry, Infantry
BuildingAttack Damage: 45 (Siege), ROF: 3.0
HandAttack Damage: 10 (Hand), ROF: 1.5
VolleyAttack Damage: 25 (Ranged), ROF: 3.0, Range: 0-10

They're not exactly combat troops, but with a few trained locally and a few from Native Treaties they will hold off a Tomahawk/Aenna rush long enough for you to send 700 wood, get a foundary up, have your stagecoach researched, and start pumping Abus Guns.

*denotes old definition

In the games where I used this strat so far, I usually have the first batch of natives out right as the first Iroquois Tomahawks show up. Followed by more quickly later. Which means by the time a typica Sioux/Aztec BB rush comes, you'll have all the natives trained that a single TP can support.

Imperial Justice,
I'm honestly not sure is this strat is of any value for single player, since pretty much anything works against the AI. As Spanish though you have much better options than native allies.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 01-06-2007 @ 02:54 AM).]

posted 01-06-07 01:02 AM EDT (US)     31 / 36  
First post updated. A replay now available.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 01-06-07 02:41 AM EDT (US)     32 / 36  
Damn Ender. Once again you have proven it. You rock.
posted 01-07-07 03:08 PM EDT (US)     33 / 36  
Ah Ender, but you see, me being a noob I sent them in towards my sioux friend's forward base. As LI and in such small number due to their high cost they did very poorly. I had over the limit in number but I guess they are better suited at preventing rushes (preferably iroquois which involve more heavy infantry).

P.S Abus behind a wall should beat any A.I if that is of any help

Thanks to all those that signed the petition to get me unbanned here.
And special thanks to smashnbash for making it.

[This message has been edited by James Lock (edited 01-07-2007 @ 03:11 PM).]

posted 01-07-07 04:05 PM EDT (US)     34 / 36  
Wow... somme, i had forgotten all about those works of art. you see, we are all artists deep inside. our friend ender_ward, he is an artist of the best strats. me, i am more of an artist of the visual image. i believe may in fact be my best work. in summary, thank you for sharing.

[This message has been edited by Tsar_Ivan_VII (edited 01-07-2007 @ 04:05 PM).]

posted 01-07-07 04:19 PM EDT (US)     35 / 36  
LOL! Ivan you got me again.

Ulti's word of wisdom :

since the start of aoe3, every unit that can move has been a direct counter to grenadiers, even villagers(since they have bonuses against siege troops)

posted 01-07-07 04:35 PM EDT (US)     36 / 36  
Ivan, my respect for you only keeps growing.

ESO: JarlNick

Want to talk OP? AOE3 Abus Guns at release were nightmares. But I knew how to take care of them! Beware my Culverins you artillery bastards! Oh wait...- MNBob

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